Whiplash6

We always wind up talking about PBS. I'm so suck of this ****.

tothebigblue

If captain tony did as much talking about PBS as he did about getting a new TA, there'd be a new one to vote on in a months time. That sh*t is over and done with...move on....NEW TA!

PeezDog

Wow Tony. With all the sarcasm you have thrown out here, the **** talking to the XJT guys, one person gives you back a sarcastic comment, and you lose it. Let me remind you that me expecting you and the union to get us a contract and making a comment on it, which is not unreasonable by the way, YOU came back with your sarcastic magic wand comment. Also let me remind you, that YOU WORK FOR ME! I and every other pilot pay hundreds and some thousands of dollars in union dues each year for you to represent us. So why do you guys get so bent out of shape when we say we are not happy with what's going on? That's is our right! In case you forgot, you also VOLUNTEERED to be in the union. You get six hours pay for each union day, whether you work six hours or not (I'm sure there are longer then 6 hour days too), did not take a concession on the last TA, and I know of guys senior to ALPA pilots, who get stuck with reserve while the junior ALPA guys gets a line because he has union days. Plus being home more often; that doesn't sound like a bad deal to me. And we all have heard the stories about the fancy dinners and such on our dimes. So spare me the its so hard routine. If you can't handle it anymore or don't like it, then please do us a favor and step down. If you can, then stop getting so butt hurt that we are tired off all the union BS and stop jerking us around, and get us a contract!

I've heard the story before about the opener. So you haven't changed your strategy since then? Maybe its time to bring out the big guns so to speak? When the United guys were getting jerked around by the company and Continental pilots, they didn't cry about it. Then changed their strategy, went all out, and got a contract. Maybe you should take a play from their book. If neither the company or XJT is talking to you, then one of three things must be happening: Our side ****ed someone off, or you guys are getting played like a fiddle, or you guys suck at negotiating. Now I've talked to Big Tony, and I've even talked to you, I know that you guys are trying to look out for us, so from where I sit and the info I get from you guys, it sounds to me like you guys are getting played big time and you don't know what to do about it.

And for your last comments about me hating the union and that I should apply for the CNC. Well hate is a strong word. I certainly don't hate the union. I am however, extremely disappointed in the union and my faith in them is very low. Not just because of the failed TA, but because of other past events that have happened to me personally and others. And its not a big secret that regional guys aren't huge ALPA fans either. I also don't need to apply to anything. I pay union dues, so I should get the best representation and the best that ALPA and our pilots has to offer. We also vote for our reps, so again, I don't need to do anything. When people ***** at their congressman and city council members, is their response, well there's and election coming up and you should run. No they don't because that's stupid. That's a sure fire way to lose an election. They listen to what the people want and do their best to make people happy. Well the good ones do anyway. That argument holds no water with anyone that pays taxes, or dues in this case. So our union people should not be saying that either. I think it shows weakness. Could anyone apply or run for office, sure, but that's supposed to be the point. If you can't, then there is a system in place to make sure the right people are there. And another tid bit, about a month or two ago, I sent in a volunteer application, I heard back from maybe two or three of the many boxes I checked. They all said they didn't need anyone currently, or I never heard from any of the other groups. So, want to try that argument again? I've (WE) tried being understanding, supportive, and grateful to you guys who do this for us, but all of that warm fuzzy feeling I used to have, is just about gone. While there are many good things that the union does for us, the good seem to be few and far between and the big and most important things are not getting done. Have a nice day

JoeMerchant

PeezDog, you do realize that Capt. Tony was one of the most vocal NO voters and led the charge to vote the TA down? Just because you want more and want more now, doesn't mean you just walk in and get it. Under the RLA, and because of pattern bargaining, and because of economic realities, and because of very different cultures between the two pilot groups, it simply isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

The simple fact of the matter is that our 50 seat flying under the current market prices being paid by our mainline partners isn't profitable with our current cost structure. Increasing our current cost structure only makes it worse. The only chance we have is that the carriers underbidding us can't staff their aircraft. The only way that happens is IF pilots don't chase aircraft. The pilots have far more leverage and control of this than Capt. Tony does.

I don't care who you send in there to negotiate, they will show you the numbers and then they will point to the fact that our pilots are leaving here for companies that have far worse contracts than the failed TA. That removes the perceived leverage that you think we have.

I know it all seems like the answer is easy from the bleachers, but until you have played the game, you really have no idea how it works.

PeezDog

I fully understand this. I've come to the conclusion that we are pretty much toast and have zero leverage. If we survive this, it will be a very different and smaller company. Which has already been known. It's not that I want more, its that I think we all just want this to be over. After 4.5 years, the excuses are going in one ear and out the other. I figured this would be a long process, but 5 years and probably longer? I'm not expecting anything better then we have now either. And we are losing pilots because we are shrinking and have zero movement. We get planes and movement, people will come. We won't get planes because we're comparatively expensive and because of whipsaw. Skywest is almost as expensive as us and more expensive then say GoJets or TSA, but they are growing and upgrading. So what gives there? Whipsaw.

Of course I've never been in the room while negotiations have taken place, but I think most of us have a basic understanding of it. How can the company negotiate with us when they have to first figure out how much their PBS will cost? Until that's done, I can't see how we can negotiate anything else. But since we lost that fight, and now that ugly PBS system will be in the next TA, we are exposed to the danger of that. But because I've never been there, that means that I can't gripe or ask questions about it? And when I do, I don't expect my union to give me snarky, sarcastic remarks.

PeezDog

As much as I trash talk the union sometimes, I have to come to their defense on this one. Pretty quickly after the failed TA, I received a polling phone call. I assume that lots of others did as well. I think there was an internet one too. So they did their homework. And from comments and emails made from our MEC, it seems like they listened. I know they are looking out for us, even though I am disappointed in the results so far.

And as an ASA pilot, my reason for voting no, as well as many other that I have talked to here, I can tell you that we voted the TA down because it was two separate contracts in one. Most had things that were better for you and worse for us in there. Like the break release thing for example. I, and many others, feel that the contract and company would be stronger with one set of rules, including a bidding program. I may have considered voting yes if the ONLY difference was PBS, lots of cash, or some cash and airplanes, and all other rules the same.

Why can't we just both try the PBS systems after the rules are in place and then have a vote? Don't get me wrong, the globalized one sounds awful, but wouldn't we all feel better if we actually tried them? Okay, I have to go be a human now

bedrock

I wonder if this company is shrinking so much, and attrition is going to continue, is PBS still going to have so much of an impact on the bottom line? What is the company and union forecast of the size of this company in 2 yrs?

Urbandrone

By the end of 2017, 283 aircraft and loss of 1300 pilots.

Whiplash6

The brake release thing wasn't even an issue. That's exactly how it is written in our current contract but ignorance spreads like wild fire and all of a sudden there's an uproar.

AtlCSIP

Incorrect. It was an issue. Right now there is precedence that keeps the company from doing other than what is currently accepted. The day a new contract is signed, the precedence is gone, and so is any legal position to argue it. It may not have been an issue for you, but it was, in fact, an issue for many of us.