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What's the Latest at ASA/Expressjet?

Old 08-09-2013, 09:00 AM
  #3961  
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Originally Posted by Nevets View Post
When I look at the raise from 2010 to 2012, I see unfairness since 1) they gave themselves a 73% raise while many FOs got no raises, 2)for those that did get raises, for many it barely covered inflation while there's was 73%, and 3) we now know they have been planning in asking for concessions all along while telling us they weren't (negotiating in bad faith), and 4) Skywest Inc is profitable and ExpressJet airlines seems to be operationally profitable, and 4) it's not the pilots' fault they we aren't making as much money as they want us to, and 5) they insist on paying for two sets of management teams and two sets of facilities and systems and processes, and staff to run two separate airlines.

Do I need to keep going to explain why it's unfair that they get their 73% raises from 2010 to 2012 while they later ask us for pay cuts? Is that you BH?



That's all great and I agree but where this argument falls apart in this particular instance is that management did not provide any capital. They are labor as well.
That is a completely different point. I never said management provided capital. I said capital came before labor, and that the purpose of labor is to make money for the capitalist.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:31 AM
  #3962  
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I may be wrong, but in my estimation BH is paid based upon his company's performance. Management has been telling us that we are leading this airline towards it's death, but BH's pay shows an entirely different story.

I do not have an issue with the 1.1 million he made and am thrilled he and the rest of our management team came up through the ranks rather than from a mba school, but I simply can't wrap my head around blaming us while they are getting substantial raises.

Also, I bet the pay decrease in 2011 was solely due to the dramatic decrease in stock value.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:13 AM
  #3963  
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I would be fine with BH getting the raise if he was actually working towards making this airline succeed. Instead we have a broken payroll system, simple IT issues that need fixing, we are turning down block hours due to short sighted staffing projections, and he is sitting atop a bloated and ineffectual middle management that is more interested in patting themselves on the back for a successful Acey Day rather than running the airline that pays for the acey day.

We are headed towards a Comair type scenario on the ERJ side within 5 years. Telling us we aren't competitive because of industry stagnation and senior pilots isn't going to fix anything and yet that is all BH has in is deck of cards. Upper management wants a "super" regional and yet their plans are to shrink us to profitability... it doesn't work that way. On the conference call a caller basically asked them this very thing after they had said terminating leases would make them more profitable and he asked "if you have fewer planes won't your costs go up by having more senior crew" ... and they acted caught off guard. We are being "managed" into skywest flying all replacement aircraft and the Expressjet side operating the XR's and half the current delta airplanes... Why should we give concessions when they have already laid out the plan?
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:22 AM
  #3964  
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Originally Posted by MikefromMT View Post
I may be wrong, but in my estimation BH is paid based upon his company's performance. Management has been telling us that we are leading this airline towards it's death, but BH's pay shows an entirely different story.

I do not have an issue with the 1.1 million he made and am thrilled he and the rest of our management team came up through the ranks rather than from a mba school, but I simply can't wrap my head around blaming us while they are getting substantial raises.

Also, I bet the pay decrease in 2011 was solely due to the dramatic decrease in stock value.
Then would it be accurate to say that the increase would be due to the rebound of the stock? If so, he has created an opportunity borne of risk, which we have not, unless we own stock as well, so he is more invested in the company, and a such, has earned a greater share of it.

I have no idea if your statement is accurate, but if it is, there is another side to it.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:52 AM
  #3965  
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Originally Posted by newarkblows View Post
I would be fine with BH getting the raise if he was actually working towards making this airline succeed. Instead we have a broken payroll system, simple IT issues that need fixing, we are turning down block hours due to short sighted staffing projections, and he is sitting atop a bloated and ineffectual middle management that is more interested in patting themselves on the back for a successful Acey Day rather than running the airline that pays for the acey day.

We are headed towards a Comair type scenario on the ERJ side within 5 years. Telling us we aren't competitive because of industry stagnation and senior pilots isn't going to fix anything and yet that is all BH has in is deck of cards. Upper management wants a "super" regional and yet their plans are to shrink us to profitability... it doesn't work that way. On the conference call a caller basically asked them this very thing after they had said terminating leases would make them more profitable and he asked "if you have fewer planes won't your costs go up by having more senior crew" ... and they acted caught off guard. We are being "managed" into skywest flying all replacement aircraft and the Expressjet side operating the XR's and half the current delta airplanes... Why should we give concessions when they have already laid out the plan?
While I agree with many of your points, I would disagree with your point about BH. I believe he is, in fact, working toward making this place better based solely on the testimony of the many captains I have flown with who comment about how much better this place (crj side) is now compared to how it was under every management team before. Could it be better? Yes. Should it be better? Yes. Will it be better? Nobody really knows. Like my mama always said... Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:09 AM
  #3966  
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Originally Posted by AtlCSIP View Post
Originally Posted by Nevets View Post
When I look at the raise from 2010 to 2012, I see unfairness since 1) they gave themselves a 73% raise while many FOs got no raises, 2)for those that did get raises, for many it barely covered inflation while there's was 73%, and 3) we now know they have been planning in asking for concessions all along while telling us they weren't (negotiating in bad faith), and 4) Skywest Inc is profitable and ExpressJet airlines seems to be operationally profitable, and 4) it's not the pilots' fault they we aren't making as much money as they want us to, and 5) they insist on paying for two sets of management teams and two sets of facilities and systems and processes, and staff to run two separate airlines.

Do I need to keep going to explain why it's unfair that they get their 73% raises from 2010 to 2012 while they later ask us for pay cuts? Is that you BH?



That's all great and I agree but where this argument falls apart in this particular instance is that management did not provide any capital. They are labor as well.
No, I am not BH. I am, in fact, a 3yr ASA FO. I also have a degree in engineering, so I can do math, and BH's raise over 2 years is actually a little over 25%, which is 12-13% per year (actually less, fiscally speaking, but that is a different topic). Is 12% per year too much?
If you look at my post, even though I used there instead of their, I'm talking about the entire executive team from the link provided. And again, I made a point and backed it up with five different facts. But to answer your question, yes I do believe that 12% is too much in light of the five facts previously mentioned. Don't you think so?
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:13 AM
  #3967  
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony View Post
Um... that's Karl Marx. Are you really advocating Communism? In defense of management? With an Abraham Lincoln avatar? I'm so confused.

I like this one better:
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." - Abraham Lincoln
I wasn't clear. I mean that when someone says that a person doesn't need $1.1 million THEY are applying the Marx standard, which I definitely do not believe in.

That's what all of the young Marxists do - they say that 'rich' people don't need all of that money, let's liberate their money and fund our pet projects.
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:20 AM
  #3968  
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Originally Posted by AtlCSIP View Post
I believe he is, in fact, working toward making this place better based solely on the testimony of the many captains I have flown with who comment about how much better this place (crj side) is now compared to how it was under every management team before.
This was the case when he initially came on and I was happy to see someone who wasn't all talk but did what he said he would. This started to deteriorate as the years progressed. It could be due to Inc. tying up his hands. I don't know but everyone that I have talked to is looking for a way to bail ship. This includes captains with relative seniority as well as folks from the training department. Morale is an all time low it seems.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:36 PM
  #3969  
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Originally Posted by Nevets View Post
If you look at my post, even though I used there instead of their, I'm talking about the entire executive team from the link provided. And again, I made a point and backed it up with five different facts. But to answer your question, yes I do believe that 12% is too much in light of the five facts previously mentioned. Don't you think so?
In light of the fact that we have gone from millions in losses to minuscule profit, no, I don't think that 12% per year, over the timeframe discussed, is out of line.

I also don't think it should have any bearing on our compensation since the two issues should be separate. We should be compensated based on our qualifications, productivity and value added, and for that, I believe we are generally under compensated. We have an industry wide problem, however, where many of our highest paid workers actually produce less and add less value back. Most industries don't work that way, and I haven't found anyone willing to discuss ways to fix that issue, which should result in greater compensation.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:41 PM
  #3970  
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Originally Posted by ross9238 View Post
This was the case when he initially came on and I was happy to see someone who wasn't all talk but did what he said he would. This started to deteriorate as the years progressed. It could be due to Inc. tying up his hands. I don't know but everyone that I have talked to is looking for a way to bail ship. This includes captains with relative seniority as well as folks from the training department. Morale is an all time low it seems.
I can't speak to how that progression was since I wasn't here, and I don't claim to know all the reasons for the deterioration since I just typically block in and go home. I have no desire to manage anything here. That being said, I am out as quickly as possible, but I would prefer to try to leave this place better than I found it, if possible.
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