What's Holding You Back?
08-15-2012, 10:42 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 294
What's Holding You Back?
The regional airline model makes me sick to my stomach. Management has us completely figured out and our unions aren't helping. So you're probably saying to yourself "We've heard this a million times so what?" Here's my solution (other than a national seniority list which will never happen).
Our industry is faced with tremendous pressure from undercutting companies with a business plan set solely on cheap labor. This is how it's always been. But now we are in a unique position to change that. There are many pilots at the regional level that come to get 1000 hours PIC time and then move on. The problem (as far as the business model goes) is that many do not want to move on. Costs increase and flying is awarded to "less senior" airlines. My solution is to let FO's fly left seat and gain PIC time. Before I get into the detail on how this would work let me first tell you the benefits to EVERYONE involved. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out. If the captain wants to let him be PIC for the flight who really cares. The FO has plenty of experience (possibly more than the most senior captain at gojet, silver, or any other new regional). The FO's get their PIC time and move on, the company can save money by not paying super senior FO's and the Captain's company can stay in business. Also, undercutting regional airlines will not be able to fill seats with pilots chasing PIC time. With 121 pilots needing their ATP's they will all be typed and qualified to do this. The captain or in this case "most senior" pilot will have the ultimate say on who is PIC for the flight, and will also receive his/her same compensation. It's a win win for everyone as far as I see it. I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Pros and Cons to this idea. I'm sure some of you hate it and some love it.......
Our industry is faced with tremendous pressure from undercutting companies with a business plan set solely on cheap labor. This is how it's always been. But now we are in a unique position to change that. There are many pilots at the regional level that come to get 1000 hours PIC time and then move on. The problem (as far as the business model goes) is that many do not want to move on. Costs increase and flying is awarded to "less senior" airlines. My solution is to let FO's fly left seat and gain PIC time. Before I get into the detail on how this would work let me first tell you the benefits to EVERYONE involved. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out. If the captain wants to let him be PIC for the flight who really cares. The FO has plenty of experience (possibly more than the most senior captain at gojet, silver, or any other new regional). The FO's get their PIC time and move on, the company can save money by not paying super senior FO's and the Captain's company can stay in business. Also, undercutting regional airlines will not be able to fill seats with pilots chasing PIC time. With 121 pilots needing their ATP's they will all be typed and qualified to do this. The captain or in this case "most senior" pilot will have the ultimate say on who is PIC for the flight, and will also receive his/her same compensation. It's a win win for everyone as far as I see it. I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Pros and Cons to this idea. I'm sure some of you hate it and some love it.......
08-15-2012, 10:48 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Seat 0B
Posts: 1,214
Originally Posted by madeinUSA
The regional airline model makes me sick to my stomach. Management has us completely figured out and our unions aren't helping. So you're probably saying to yourself "We've heard this a million times so what?" Here's my solution (other than a national seniority list which will never happen).
Our industry is faced with tremendous pressure from undercutting companies with a business plan set solely on cheap labor. This is how it's always been. But now we are in a unique position to change that. There are many pilots at the regional level that come to get 1000 hours PIC time and then move on. The problem (as far as the business model goes) is that many do not want to move on. Costs increase and flying is awarded to "less senior" airlines. My solution is to let FO's fly left seat and gain PIC time. Before I get into the detail on how this would work let me first tell you the benefits to EVERYONE involved. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out. If the captain wants to let him be PIC for the flight who really cares. The FO has plenty of experience (possibly more than the most senior captain at gojet, silver, or any other new regional). The FO's get their PIC time and move on, the company can save money by not paying super senior FO's and the Captain's company can stay in business. Also, undercutting regional airlines will not be able to fill seats with pilots chasing PIC time. With 121 pilots needing their ATP's they will all be typed and qualified to do this. The captain or in this case "most senior" pilot will have the ultimate say on who is PIC for the flight, and will also receive his/her same compensation. It's a win win for everyone as far as I see it. I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Pros and Cons to this idea. I'm sure some of you hate it and some love it.......
Our industry is faced with tremendous pressure from undercutting companies with a business plan set solely on cheap labor. This is how it's always been. But now we are in a unique position to change that. There are many pilots at the regional level that come to get 1000 hours PIC time and then move on. The problem (as far as the business model goes) is that many do not want to move on. Costs increase and flying is awarded to "less senior" airlines. My solution is to let FO's fly left seat and gain PIC time. Before I get into the detail on how this would work let me first tell you the benefits to EVERYONE involved. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out. If the captain wants to let him be PIC for the flight who really cares. The FO has plenty of experience (possibly more than the most senior captain at gojet, silver, or any other new regional). The FO's get their PIC time and move on, the company can save money by not paying super senior FO's and the Captain's company can stay in business. Also, undercutting regional airlines will not be able to fill seats with pilots chasing PIC time. With 121 pilots needing their ATP's they will all be typed and qualified to do this. The captain or in this case "most senior" pilot will have the ultimate say on who is PIC for the flight, and will also receive his/her same compensation. It's a win win for everyone as far as I see it. I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Pros and Cons to this idea. I'm sure some of you hate it and some love it.......
This would be a good idea in the 91 world though.
08-15-2012, 10:52 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: UniCal 737 FO
Posts: 413
To log PIC time you have to have the ultimate authority above anyone else on the airplane. Just because you are sitting in the left seat does not give you the experiance that comes along with the responsibility. That's the problem. It's also in the FARs. If the captain agrees to sit right seat, he would have to concede authority to you, highly doubtful. The exception sort of lies during upgrade, when in OE. I hear you technically can't log PIC then either, only the check airman can even when he sits right seat.
I am there with you though. I wish there was a way for FOs to log PIC. That would help us out a lot. Especially during these times of forever upgrades.
I am there with you though. I wish there was a way for FOs to log PIC. That would help us out a lot. Especially during these times of forever upgrades.
08-15-2012, 10:59 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 294
Originally Posted by Red97Vette
To log PIC time you have to have the ultimate authority above anyone else on the airplane. Just because you are sitting in the left seat does not give you the experiance that comes along with the responsibility. That's the problem. It's also in the FARs. If the captain agrees to sit right seat, he would have to concede authority to you, highly doubtful. The exception sort of lies during upgrade, when in OE. I hear you technically can't log PIC then either, only the check airman can even when he sits right seat.
I am there with you though. I wish there was a way for FOs to log PIC. That would help us out a lot. Especially during these times of forever upgrades.
I am there with you though. I wish there was a way for FOs to log PIC. That would help us out a lot. Especially during these times of forever upgrades.
08-15-2012, 11:00 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,171
This would be a good idea in the 91 world though.
We did it that way in the AF, too. From the start of your first squadron, you were developed into aircraft commanders and had to be ready to upgrade. Three years to A/C, preferably IP. Every flight was an instructional ride, you had squares to fill, experiences to document, tests to take. No sitting around, jerking the gear.
GF
08-15-2012, 11:01 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: CA
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by madeinUSA
The regional airline model makes me sick to my stomach. Management has us completely figured out and our unions aren't helping. So you're probably saying to yourself "We've heard this a million times so what?" Here's my solution (other than a national seniority list which will never happen).
Our industry is faced with tremendous pressure from undercutting companies with a business plan set solely on cheap labor. This is how it's always been. But now we are in a unique position to change that. There are many pilots at the regional level that come to get 1000 hours PIC time and then move on. The problem (as far as the business model goes) is that many do not want to move on. Costs increase and flying is awarded to "less senior" airlines. My solution is to let FO's fly left seat and gain PIC time. Before I get into the detail on how this would work let me first tell you the benefits to EVERYONE involved. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out. If the captain wants to let him be PIC for the flight who really cares. The FO has plenty of experience (possibly more than the most senior captain at gojet, silver, or any other new regional). The FO's get their PIC time and move on, the company can save money by not paying super senior FO's and the Captain's company can stay in business. Also, undercutting regional airlines will not be able to fill seats with pilots chasing PIC time. With 121 pilots needing their ATP's they will all be typed and qualified to do this. The captain or in this case "most senior" pilot will have the ultimate say on who is PIC for the flight, and will also receive his/her same compensation. It's a win win for everyone as far as I see it. I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Pros and Cons to this idea. I'm sure some of you hate it and some love it.......
Our industry is faced with tremendous pressure from undercutting companies with a business plan set solely on cheap labor. This is how it's always been. But now we are in a unique position to change that. There are many pilots at the regional level that come to get 1000 hours PIC time and then move on. The problem (as far as the business model goes) is that many do not want to move on. Costs increase and flying is awarded to "less senior" airlines. My solution is to let FO's fly left seat and gain PIC time. Before I get into the detail on how this would work let me first tell you the benefits to EVERYONE involved. Let's first look at a 50 year old Captain at Comair. He's making 120,000 a year, lives in base, has a good schedule, and isn't going anywhere unless his company folds. He could care less about having 10,0000 hours PIC or 15,000. In fact he stopped logging years ago. Now you have sitting next to him a 10 year FO, late 20's, commuting in the hopes of getting PIC time and getting out. If the captain wants to let him be PIC for the flight who really cares. The FO has plenty of experience (possibly more than the most senior captain at gojet, silver, or any other new regional). The FO's get their PIC time and move on, the company can save money by not paying super senior FO's and the Captain's company can stay in business. Also, undercutting regional airlines will not be able to fill seats with pilots chasing PIC time. With 121 pilots needing their ATP's they will all be typed and qualified to do this. The captain or in this case "most senior" pilot will have the ultimate say on who is PIC for the flight, and will also receive his/her same compensation. It's a win win for everyone as far as I see it. I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Pros and Cons to this idea. I'm sure some of you hate it and some love it.......
08-15-2012, 11:03 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Seat 0B
Posts: 1,214
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
We do it in the FAR 91 world. Just about all biz jet pilots have full PIC types, we switch seats and log time that way. BUT, not many hire guys without lots of PIC in the first place.
GF
GF
08-15-2012, 11:18 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Sleeping
Posts: 1,036
in a dream world maybe... keep dreaming.
I'm in the same boat though. My only hope is to keep applying at anything outside of a regional and hope I get a nibble. I don't even care who it is, spirit, jbul, vx. Something has got to give.
I'm in the same boat though. My only hope is to keep applying at anything outside of a regional and hope I get a nibble. I don't even care who it is, spirit, jbul, vx. Something has got to give.
08-15-2012, 11:25 AM
#10
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,183
Reducing FO cost won't make much of a dent...the airlines REALLY want to get rid of any and all six-figure regional CA's (or anyone over about $50K).
If that's you, you only still have a job because they haven't quite figured out how to dispose of you yet...but they are sure working on it, while you're reading USA Today in cruise flight, an entire team of MBA's is plotting to eliminate your position and re-bid it to a 24 y/o who's willing to live in a van down by the river.
If that's you, you only still have a job because they haven't quite figured out how to dispose of you yet...but they are sure working on it, while you're reading USA Today in cruise flight, an entire team of MBA's is plotting to eliminate your position and re-bid it to a 24 y/o who's willing to live in a van down by the river.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
GimmeAir
Flight Schools and Training
3
05-19-2009 03:31 PM
