The Insanity of Concessions in 2014
12-15-2014, 06:28 AM
#252
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Originally Posted by Baxter76
Was wondering if Junglebus would like to make another assessment of the insanity of concessions now that we have seen concessions across the board and soon to see another one on the 23rd.
12-15-2014, 11:15 AM
#254
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Originally Posted by JungleBus
Yep. Still insanity. The airlines picking up flying won't be able to staff it all, least of all the ones with concessionary contracts. Eagle's concessions will not save them any more than Comair's givebacks secured their future. But it's never been an entirely rational industry, and the last 30 yrs have given airline management a great deal of experience in playing on pilots' fears and setting them against each other. For a while a few regional groups gave me hope that we had learned better. I guess not.
12-15-2014, 09:05 PM
#255
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Originally Posted by JungleBus
Yep. Still insanity. The airlines picking up flying won't be able to staff it all, least of all the ones with concessionary contracts. Eagle's concessions will not save them any more than Comair's givebacks secured their future. But it's never been an entirely rational industry, and the last 30 yrs have given airline management a great deal of experience in playing on pilots' fears and setting them against each other. For a while a few regional groups gave me hope that we had learned better. I guess not.
The 3 yellow-bellied pilot groups pretty much hosed it for everyone...
12-16-2014, 09:28 PM
#256
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Originally Posted by pagey
This has been proven to be a false assumption.
01-07-2015, 04:40 PM
#259
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I must say, at least in 2014, I was wrong. I was among those who thought the shortage had hit and that regional pilot groups had leverage in contract negotiations. It's coming, I believe...that's evidenced by some of these wholly-owned 10 year contracts, by the fact that management wanted to, and DID get them locked in. I mean, I'M the guy who wrote this whole novel:
So yes, it would have been great if everyone could have held out until the shortage was realized...but is that in a year? 2 years? 5 years? Never? One one hand, it's easy to say "we'll all be at the majors in 5-10 years so just hold out" OTOH, would YOU vote no, lose aircraft, lose currency when the majors DO start to hire?
But can the pilots who voted in the contracts REALLY be blamed? What i mean is, if you were in their position, would the results really have been different? It's easy to say "burn it down" when it's theoretical and when it doesn't affect you, but when the threat is VERY real, and right on front of you, the heaviness of real life and not keyboard cool guy wins out.
The guys at PSA, PDT, and ENY did what they had to do. It's unrealistic to think PSA wouldn't take a growth opportunity, PDT would vote to be shut down, or ENY would keep banging their yea against the wall, losing airplanes, QOL, downgrades, etc. It's also unfair...who here DOESN'T want their carrier to grow? Who here honestly likes seeing other carriers grow while yours doesn't, others' careers take off, while yours stagnates? Let's be real here...we're all competing to not only GET to the majors, but get there ASAP.
All the "togetherness" and "raising the bar" talk is great in theory, but not in reality not at this point. Guys are gonna vote to keep their jobs, guys are gonna leave stagnate seniority lists for growing and moving ones, guys are gonna do what they think is best to advance their careers! Taking one for the team doesn't do that.
It to sucks that the elements are stacked up against pilots in terms of management, The RLA, and ALPA...but for the most part it's still simple economics: supply and demand. If those pilots hadn't voted to retain their jobs, someone else would do it [cheaper]. We're not to the point of true shortage yet. It is what it is.
Originally Posted by gatorbuc99
I think right now we're not IN a position to undercut each other and be whipsawed because the bodies aren't there! Not under the current conditions, not without improvements in pay and benefits to attract qualified pilots, and motivate young pilots to pursue the career.
Yea, we've had legacy guys vote away scope, yea we've had lifers at regionals clogging things up, yea we've had young people w/ SJS willing to fly for peanuts (like me, not in SJS terms but in choosing a regional based on a possibility of a home base (RAH/CHQ/SDF...and so much for that, huh?), even though others right now have better contracts). I doubt most pilots don't fall under one of those categories in some way or form. So we've all had a hand in the degradation of the career.
We've had a TON working against us this last decade and a half...9/11, economy, fuel, age 65. We've been embattled, then humbled, and finally humiliated. Pensions lost, multiple furloughs, stagnation galore. Intelligent, talented, driven, and goal-oriented men and women have had careers ruined, lives joylessly sidetracked, families robbed of joy.
HOWEVER, now that the environment favors us, each segment is doing their part; majors taking back flying, regionals guys moving on after seeing what happened to Comair, that you gotta be super careful and leery of trying to make a career outta a regional. Moreover, they're looking out for the future of the career, advising young guys to choose their regionals wisely, going after better contracts/QOL after investing $20-$70K for training/degree, not the shiny new plane and quick upgrade. It's gonna be a slow process, but this IS the tipping/turning point...right here, right NOW!
So yea, when there's stagnation, when the barrier to entry into the career is low, when things are working against us...management takes incredible advantage, and we're our own worst enemies. But now that the barrier of entry is high[er], there's movement ramping up (slowly but surely), pilots are in a position to recapture pride in the profession by demanding higher wages and commanding working conditions commensurate to the level of skill and responsibility. THIS...IS...A...HUUUUGE OPPORTUNITY!!!
I commend the men and women of XJT/ASA and now EGF for drawing the line here. Enough is enough! Although it wasn't some huge self-made movement, a swelling of solidarity borne of unity and unselfishness, it doesn't matter here and now. The fact that we ARE now starting to take advantage of the environment should really be an eye-opening, powerful movement. Aided as it may be by the ATP rule, FAR117, age 65, and legacies returning to profitability, the returning of the career to respectability should be embraced as a unifying battle cry. It's GOT to be taken advantage of!
Yea, we've had legacy guys vote away scope, yea we've had lifers at regionals clogging things up, yea we've had young people w/ SJS willing to fly for peanuts (like me, not in SJS terms but in choosing a regional based on a possibility of a home base (RAH/CHQ/SDF...and so much for that, huh?), even though others right now have better contracts). I doubt most pilots don't fall under one of those categories in some way or form. So we've all had a hand in the degradation of the career.
We've had a TON working against us this last decade and a half...9/11, economy, fuel, age 65. We've been embattled, then humbled, and finally humiliated. Pensions lost, multiple furloughs, stagnation galore. Intelligent, talented, driven, and goal-oriented men and women have had careers ruined, lives joylessly sidetracked, families robbed of joy.
HOWEVER, now that the environment favors us, each segment is doing their part; majors taking back flying, regionals guys moving on after seeing what happened to Comair, that you gotta be super careful and leery of trying to make a career outta a regional. Moreover, they're looking out for the future of the career, advising young guys to choose their regionals wisely, going after better contracts/QOL after investing $20-$70K for training/degree, not the shiny new plane and quick upgrade. It's gonna be a slow process, but this IS the tipping/turning point...right here, right NOW!
So yea, when there's stagnation, when the barrier to entry into the career is low, when things are working against us...management takes incredible advantage, and we're our own worst enemies. But now that the barrier of entry is high[er], there's movement ramping up (slowly but surely), pilots are in a position to recapture pride in the profession by demanding higher wages and commanding working conditions commensurate to the level of skill and responsibility. THIS...IS...A...HUUUUGE OPPORTUNITY!!!
I commend the men and women of XJT/ASA and now EGF for drawing the line here. Enough is enough! Although it wasn't some huge self-made movement, a swelling of solidarity borne of unity and unselfishness, it doesn't matter here and now. The fact that we ARE now starting to take advantage of the environment should really be an eye-opening, powerful movement. Aided as it may be by the ATP rule, FAR117, age 65, and legacies returning to profitability, the returning of the career to respectability should be embraced as a unifying battle cry. It's GOT to be taken advantage of!
So yes, it would have been great if everyone could have held out until the shortage was realized...but is that in a year? 2 years? 5 years? Never? One one hand, it's easy to say "we'll all be at the majors in 5-10 years so just hold out" OTOH, would YOU vote no, lose aircraft, lose currency when the majors DO start to hire?
But can the pilots who voted in the contracts REALLY be blamed? What i mean is, if you were in their position, would the results really have been different? It's easy to say "burn it down" when it's theoretical and when it doesn't affect you, but when the threat is VERY real, and right on front of you, the heaviness of real life and not keyboard cool guy wins out.
The guys at PSA, PDT, and ENY did what they had to do. It's unrealistic to think PSA wouldn't take a growth opportunity, PDT would vote to be shut down, or ENY would keep banging their yea against the wall, losing airplanes, QOL, downgrades, etc. It's also unfair...who here DOESN'T want their carrier to grow? Who here honestly likes seeing other carriers grow while yours doesn't, others' careers take off, while yours stagnates? Let's be real here...we're all competing to not only GET to the majors, but get there ASAP.
All the "togetherness" and "raising the bar" talk is great in theory, but not in reality not at this point. Guys are gonna vote to keep their jobs, guys are gonna leave stagnate seniority lists for growing and moving ones, guys are gonna do what they think is best to advance their careers! Taking one for the team doesn't do that.
It to sucks that the elements are stacked up against pilots in terms of management, The RLA, and ALPA...but for the most part it's still simple economics: supply and demand. If those pilots hadn't voted to retain their jobs, someone else would do it [cheaper]. We're not to the point of true shortage yet. It is what it is.
01-07-2015, 05:23 PM
#260
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
Well from what I've seen, and from what friends of mine currently in classes at various regionals have told me, it seems that at least half of almost every class are guys switching regionals. Whole lot of shuffling going on, but not a whole lot of the 1500 hour CFI types.
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