Former FO, 3 OVI convictions...
08-23-2014, 11:56 AM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 182
Originally Posted by MaxThrustPower
I've been watching this posting with interest but it's apparently about run its' course. I contemplated whether I wanted to respond (which entailed setting up a membership) but finally decided to follow through before it faded off into the sunset.
I'm a former military pilot and commissioned officer, ATP, and current commercial pilot for a very large international airline. I earned two college degrees, held a Top Secret security clearance, had a long marriage, raised three pretty good kids, and am a faithful member at services for my chosen religion. I'm also a recovered alcoholic who is in the HIMS program for long-term monitoring and support for my previous substance abuse. While I see support to the OP from some posters, I also see a lot of judgment and hostility from others which is a reminder to me about why I don't feel free to openly discuss it in the cockpit with my flying partners. Yes, on your next trip, I could be in the other seat and you wouldn't even have a clue. As a matter of fact, there are a LOT more of us out there than most of you would even begin to imagine. MANY of us choose not discuss our backgrounds at all, or at least not unless a situation comes up where we feel we can help a fellow pilot or his family. There are enough of us out there that we even have our own support groups within Alcoholics Anonymous that meet in major cities all over the U.S and internationally.
Yes, alcoholism (and addiction) is a disease. People with alcoholism are genetically-predisposed to it; it often runs in families. It's progressive. It can develop quickly for some people, but for many of us more "functional alcoholics" it developed over many years of regular drinking that started as what a lot of people would call "social". Some people cross that line into addiction; others don't. Addiction is often scorned by the non-addicted as a matter of poor willpower, poor self-discipline, poor self-knowledge, and other weak traits. It's not that at all. In us, using alcohol in any amount can often start a craving and obsession from the area of the brain that drives SURVIVAL and getting more of the alcohol and feeding the addiction becomes a basic need on the same level as food, water, and shelter. They don't understand how introducing alcohol or other mood-altering substances into a sober alcoholic and otherwise upstanding, responsible citizen can lead them to make poor decisions about areas of their life that are completely irrational, wreckless, and irresponsible.
Just so you'll know, I was never a daily drinker. When I drank, I didn't always drink to excess. But the problem was that my use of alcohol caused increasingly serious problems in my life, yet I continued to be drawn back into using it anyway. And eventually, it caused more problems, problems that got more and more serious as I went along. And that, by definition, is an alcoholic. We're not always the homeless guy under the bridge with a bottle in a brown paper bag. As a matter of fact, we're often someone quite different than that. Alcoholics are your neighbors, your friends, your doctor, your attorney, the man who sits next to you in church. We're real people struggling with a very real disease. The more we are judged, the more we are likely to continue to fight this battle on our own, refusing to acknowledge it or to accept outside help.
If you haven't walked in our shoes, you have no business passing judgment. Yes, you have the right to expect the addict or alcoholic to own up to his past mistakes (including drunk driving) and to pay his penalties with society but you have no business condemning who we are today or the people we are capable of being tomorrow. Recovery and long-term sobriety are realistically achievable.
Prior to about 1976, the FARs *DID* prevent someone who had been medically diagnosed as an alcoholic or addict from holding an airman medical certificate. Did this mean that pilots who were alcoholic prior to 1976 stopped flying? Of course not. They hid it as long as they could, and few probably left the cockpit or got any help. After the FAA started the HIMS program, more pilots have received treatment and help for their addiction without it interfering with their aviation careers. (Home)
The irony of the judgment of my fellow pilots is that perhaps some of them, or the pilots they will be assigned to fly with, are undiagnosed alcoholics or problems drinkers who have yet to hit a bottom or be confronted with an intervention. What has not been mentioned at all is that many airlines actually VALUE those of us in recovery because we are a known, disclosed risk that is being actively managed as opposed to those pilots out there who are still running around with an issue but dodging the bullet -- so far. I acknowledge that the OP has more of an uphill battle since he is not employed as a pilot as I was when I entered recovery. But, as long as he has truly acknowledged his problem, sought help, and recovered, I don't think he needs to shut the door on an aviation career if he wants to pursue it. I say this not only for his benefit but also for the many dozens of other readers who might be watching this thread with interest.
I'm not proud of the many skeletons in my closet as a result of my alcoholism. Yes, I have not one, but multiple DUI's over about a 20-year period. One of those was even before I was hired at a major airline, although it was not recent. Each time, I told myself I wouldn't do it again but I didn't go to Alcoholics Anonymous or treatment on my own. Each time, I eventually did it again and then eventually got caught. My behavior led to an intervention and I went to in-patient treatment. I have relapsed after that treatment but have been through follow-on in-patient treatment, out-patient treatment, and individual counseling as well as several Alcoholics Anonymous meetings a week on a regular basis.
By the grace of God, I didn't kill anyone. But my most serious incident did involve a car accident with a relatively minor injury to the other party. As he should have, the District Attorney prosecuted me to the fullest extent of the law and I paid severely, but I'm fortunate not to have had to go to prison. However, because the charges were elevated to felony-level, that is something that I will have to live with for the rest of my life.
I won't tell my whole story here but I've had numerous other serious consequences that are a direct or strong indirect result of my alcoholism.
As for my FAA medical, I have been forthright with them from the start. I have disclosed all my DUI's and treatment for alcoholism as well as my relapses. Today, I hold a First Class Medical Certificate. Yes, the FARs do still read that alcoholism is prohibitive for holding an airman's medical certificate. However, the Special Issuance waiver process is available today for alcoholism and the FAA has actually issued me more than one of these since I acknowledged my relapses. Under that SI, as an SI for other illnesses might require, are a set of conditions I have to meet to continue to exercise the privileges.
You might be surprised at how many "hoops" someone like me has to jump through to keep flying, but it is quite possible if you want a flying career badly enough. Of course, complete abstinence is expected and directly stated on the SI approval letter. Some of those other conditions include regular attendance at group aftercare sessions and AA meetings; annual meetings with an addiction-certified psychiatrist; regular contact with my EAP, Chief Pilot, AME to verify my continued sobriety; renewing my medical exam every six months (regardless of the need to maintain a 1st Class); and frequent additional random drug & alcohol testing above and beyond basic DOT random or probable cause.
Sure, Canada is a problem for me right now but that does not have to exclude a job with a major airline. I’m well aware of the legal restrictions and fortunately I’m able to bid my schedule around trips into Canada for now. My employer has other pilots in the same situation and we are able to discreetly inform our flight administration that we cannot accept Canadian assignments. Given enough time, some complicated paperwork, and some hefty payments to the Canadian government, it is possible that I can go there again one day. For me, today, that is not possible.
I realize many of you reading this are appalled and possibly angry that someone like me is allowed to continue my career. You are entitled to your opinion, but the bottom line is that I don’t care what you think. I know and accept that people who aren’t addicted don’t fully understand or empathize with those of us who fight this battle. The only thing that matters is if that my recovery and current medical condition satisfy the FAA’s intense bureaucratic review, that should be good enough for any uninformed bystander. If I had not been working a good program of recovery, I truly don’t believe God would have opened that door for me.
I wish the OP well in his chosen career path, whatever that may be. And I pray that one day a diagnosis of alcoholism will be better understood and not used as a Scarlet Letter to brand someone as an outcast for life.
Matthew 7:1
I'm a former military pilot and commissioned officer, ATP, and current commercial pilot for a very large international airline. I earned two college degrees, held a Top Secret security clearance, had a long marriage, raised three pretty good kids, and am a faithful member at services for my chosen religion. I'm also a recovered alcoholic who is in the HIMS program for long-term monitoring and support for my previous substance abuse. While I see support to the OP from some posters, I also see a lot of judgment and hostility from others which is a reminder to me about why I don't feel free to openly discuss it in the cockpit with my flying partners. Yes, on your next trip, I could be in the other seat and you wouldn't even have a clue. As a matter of fact, there are a LOT more of us out there than most of you would even begin to imagine. MANY of us choose not discuss our backgrounds at all, or at least not unless a situation comes up where we feel we can help a fellow pilot or his family. There are enough of us out there that we even have our own support groups within Alcoholics Anonymous that meet in major cities all over the U.S and internationally.
Yes, alcoholism (and addiction) is a disease. People with alcoholism are genetically-predisposed to it; it often runs in families. It's progressive. It can develop quickly for some people, but for many of us more "functional alcoholics" it developed over many years of regular drinking that started as what a lot of people would call "social". Some people cross that line into addiction; others don't. Addiction is often scorned by the non-addicted as a matter of poor willpower, poor self-discipline, poor self-knowledge, and other weak traits. It's not that at all. In us, using alcohol in any amount can often start a craving and obsession from the area of the brain that drives SURVIVAL and getting more of the alcohol and feeding the addiction becomes a basic need on the same level as food, water, and shelter. They don't understand how introducing alcohol or other mood-altering substances into a sober alcoholic and otherwise upstanding, responsible citizen can lead them to make poor decisions about areas of their life that are completely irrational, wreckless, and irresponsible.
Just so you'll know, I was never a daily drinker. When I drank, I didn't always drink to excess. But the problem was that my use of alcohol caused increasingly serious problems in my life, yet I continued to be drawn back into using it anyway. And eventually, it caused more problems, problems that got more and more serious as I went along. And that, by definition, is an alcoholic. We're not always the homeless guy under the bridge with a bottle in a brown paper bag. As a matter of fact, we're often someone quite different than that. Alcoholics are your neighbors, your friends, your doctor, your attorney, the man who sits next to you in church. We're real people struggling with a very real disease. The more we are judged, the more we are likely to continue to fight this battle on our own, refusing to acknowledge it or to accept outside help.
If you haven't walked in our shoes, you have no business passing judgment. Yes, you have the right to expect the addict or alcoholic to own up to his past mistakes (including drunk driving) and to pay his penalties with society but you have no business condemning who we are today or the people we are capable of being tomorrow. Recovery and long-term sobriety are realistically achievable.
Prior to about 1976, the FARs *DID* prevent someone who had been medically diagnosed as an alcoholic or addict from holding an airman medical certificate. Did this mean that pilots who were alcoholic prior to 1976 stopped flying? Of course not. They hid it as long as they could, and few probably left the cockpit or got any help. After the FAA started the HIMS program, more pilots have received treatment and help for their addiction without it interfering with their aviation careers. (Home)
The irony of the judgment of my fellow pilots is that perhaps some of them, or the pilots they will be assigned to fly with, are undiagnosed alcoholics or problems drinkers who have yet to hit a bottom or be confronted with an intervention. What has not been mentioned at all is that many airlines actually VALUE those of us in recovery because we are a known, disclosed risk that is being actively managed as opposed to those pilots out there who are still running around with an issue but dodging the bullet -- so far. I acknowledge that the OP has more of an uphill battle since he is not employed as a pilot as I was when I entered recovery. But, as long as he has truly acknowledged his problem, sought help, and recovered, I don't think he needs to shut the door on an aviation career if he wants to pursue it. I say this not only for his benefit but also for the many dozens of other readers who might be watching this thread with interest.
I'm not proud of the many skeletons in my closet as a result of my alcoholism. Yes, I have not one, but multiple DUI's over about a 20-year period. One of those was even before I was hired at a major airline, although it was not recent. Each time, I told myself I wouldn't do it again but I didn't go to Alcoholics Anonymous or treatment on my own. Each time, I eventually did it again and then eventually got caught. My behavior led to an intervention and I went to in-patient treatment. I have relapsed after that treatment but have been through follow-on in-patient treatment, out-patient treatment, and individual counseling as well as several Alcoholics Anonymous meetings a week on a regular basis.
By the grace of God, I didn't kill anyone. But my most serious incident did involve a car accident with a relatively minor injury to the other party. As he should have, the District Attorney prosecuted me to the fullest extent of the law and I paid severely, but I'm fortunate not to have had to go to prison. However, because the charges were elevated to felony-level, that is something that I will have to live with for the rest of my life.
I won't tell my whole story here but I've had numerous other serious consequences that are a direct or strong indirect result of my alcoholism.
As for my FAA medical, I have been forthright with them from the start. I have disclosed all my DUI's and treatment for alcoholism as well as my relapses. Today, I hold a First Class Medical Certificate. Yes, the FARs do still read that alcoholism is prohibitive for holding an airman's medical certificate. However, the Special Issuance waiver process is available today for alcoholism and the FAA has actually issued me more than one of these since I acknowledged my relapses. Under that SI, as an SI for other illnesses might require, are a set of conditions I have to meet to continue to exercise the privileges.
You might be surprised at how many "hoops" someone like me has to jump through to keep flying, but it is quite possible if you want a flying career badly enough. Of course, complete abstinence is expected and directly stated on the SI approval letter. Some of those other conditions include regular attendance at group aftercare sessions and AA meetings; annual meetings with an addiction-certified psychiatrist; regular contact with my EAP, Chief Pilot, AME to verify my continued sobriety; renewing my medical exam every six months (regardless of the need to maintain a 1st Class); and frequent additional random drug & alcohol testing above and beyond basic DOT random or probable cause.
Sure, Canada is a problem for me right now but that does not have to exclude a job with a major airline. I’m well aware of the legal restrictions and fortunately I’m able to bid my schedule around trips into Canada for now. My employer has other pilots in the same situation and we are able to discreetly inform our flight administration that we cannot accept Canadian assignments. Given enough time, some complicated paperwork, and some hefty payments to the Canadian government, it is possible that I can go there again one day. For me, today, that is not possible.
I realize many of you reading this are appalled and possibly angry that someone like me is allowed to continue my career. You are entitled to your opinion, but the bottom line is that I don’t care what you think. I know and accept that people who aren’t addicted don’t fully understand or empathize with those of us who fight this battle. The only thing that matters is if that my recovery and current medical condition satisfy the FAA’s intense bureaucratic review, that should be good enough for any uninformed bystander. If I had not been working a good program of recovery, I truly don’t believe God would have opened that door for me.
I wish the OP well in his chosen career path, whatever that may be. And I pray that one day a diagnosis of alcoholism will be better understood and not used as a Scarlet Letter to brand someone as an outcast for life.
Matthew 7:1
Congratulations on your having resurrected your career and I will say a prayer for your continued your recovery.
08-26-2014, 03:34 PM
#153
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 16
I just wanted to thank you for your humble, honest and accurate remarks! For all of you who think The op is pulling a fast one, he's not...I've been in the rooms he's talking about and this person is very honest and accurate. I thank you! I honestly just don't think this career is worth my time, effort and humility any more. Unfortunately over15 yrs ago when I first got into aviation, I would have stated otherwise...but it's just not worth it anymore, an aviation career is a joke these days, and I'm gonna pass.
08-27-2014, 12:58 AM
#154
Stuck Mic
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,059
Originally Posted by pilotj1
I just wanted to thank you for your humble, honest and accurate remarks! For all of you who think The op is pulling a fast one, he's not...I've been in the rooms he's talking about and this person is very honest and accurate. I thank you! I honestly just don't think this career is worth my time, effort and humility any more. Unfortunately over15 yrs ago when I first got into aviation, I would have stated otherwise...but it's just not worth it anymore, an aviation career is a joke these days, and I'm gonna pass.
And all you who defended this guy. Now your career is a joke.
08-27-2014, 09:14 AM
#158
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 49
08-27-2014, 05:49 PM
#159
Stuck Mic
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,059
Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom
He is actually right, 100K in training for a 20K job.
Your first year you make $20k depending on where you go. Whats the average CRJ CA pull in, easily 80k, many over 100k. Some on reserve will be less, many that work the system or work harder make even more.
You think the high powered lawyers walked into huge cases and seven figure paychecks? All that schooling to get a law degree to work under a real lawyer, writing BS summaries etc.
Doctors who spends hundreds of thousands, only to be a resident and eventually start making money back when they are 35.
Small business owners who invest a hundred grand only to pay themselves nothing for 5 years and finally start getting paid at that point...if they are one of the lucky ones who make it.
We are great complainers, I know that much. I've even had an American captain jump seater who was complaining about the taxes on his private runway where he keeps his 3 airplanes and said he wasn't getting paid enough.
08-27-2014, 06:09 PM
#160
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 289
Former FO, 3 OVI convictions...
Originally Posted by Firsttimeflyer
even had an American captain jump seater who was complaining about the taxes on his private runway where he keeps his 3 airplanes and said he wasn't getting paid enough.
Hahahaha freakin classic! I'd give him this:
Last edited by eman; 08-27-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: .
