QuagmireGiggity

That's really stupid.

NineGturn

Let me rephrase....it's not the unions keeping pilots down...the unions are a tool by the airlines to keep pilot pay down. The system in place was originally designed to organize and protect pilots but it has evolved into a system to control and reduce pay scales.

Trust me in the fact that management is not scared of the power of unions, they are terrified that the unions and seniority systems may go away and force hiring and pay scales in an open free market.

If a senior captain at any airline were able to sell his or her skills and experience in a totally free market, the airlines would suddenly be forced to pay market value for those services. As it is now, they have you by the bal....I mean seniority number and they know it. You can't quit and go work for the competition and they know it.

AdiosMikeFox

That logic only works in an industry where there are more barriers to entry. As it has been proven many times over in this industry, there are many willing to work for substandard wages in order to enjoy the perks and respect the job offers. Management definitely uses the democratization of labor as a tool to suppress wages at every opportunity, especially at the regional level. The only thing preventing that from happening at the major level are the relatively strong unions.

Do unions have their downside? Sure, sometimes they are their own worst enemy. Free market wages are not going to come to aviation without resulting in some crushing reductions in overall compensation.

BoilerUP

Free market wages aren't going to come to aviation because the aviation market isn't "free"...and regulation has a heck of a lot more to do with that than unions do.

CaYaTeKbron

Hey quagmire.....lite it up Francis !!! He was just easing the mood....!!!

gloopy

Hey let's git rid of all our contracts and seniority lists and we'll all get huge raises! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee! lol really.

satpak77

To re-hash what ALPA and numerous others have said, no pilot shortage at the major level. FDX, DAL, AMR, etc will NEVER put recruitment ads on Craigslist or offer signing bonuses to new hires.

Airline pilots are all equipment operators, and get paid an hourly wage. There is no college degree required for certification by the governing body (FAA), much less advanced degrees. Airline pilot is NOT a white collar profession due to the above reasons, and "income" does not automatically grant white collar status, no more than a table dancer who makes 150K is white collar.

I must have missed the "Life will be Fair to You" certificate when I popped out of my mother. This was apparently issued to other pilots but I never got mine.

If pilots aren't happy with 16K wages at Crap Express, well, go somewhere else, another company or another profession or another "path" to the airline cockpit besides regionals.

If you are jealous because DAL pays more than your company, well quit and go work for DAL. whats with all this "raising the bar" and "lowering the bar" crap. You don't like it, leave. Go where you will like it.

Sorry, but thats the reality.

NineGturn

This is pretty much what I said except for the part about majors because pay at majors has come down even worse than regional pay. If you think major airline pilots are well paid that's part of the problem. And the fact that "regional" are just outsourced jobs from the majors anyway.

Stop thinking of regional flying as a career stepping stone and see it for what it is....outsourced airline jobs with union contracts used to force below market wages. Who owns those "regional" jets anyway?

Are you kidding me!? That's complete nonsense. They have been spiraling downward as a direct result of not being subject to free market.

NineGturn

Ive been a professional pilot for thirty years and I'm unfamiliar with any regulations that require unions and seniority lists as a requirement to manage an airline.

Regulation has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact powerful regulations mean unions are even less necessary.

NineGturn

No....but you would be free to move laterally and compete for the job for which you are in demand at better pay without the shackles of a seniority list....this would force your current employer to either hire someone to replace you or raise your pay to prevent you from leaving.

Employers would compete on all levels to attract and retain pilots with benefits, days off, hotel quality and anything else to keep their investments from jumping ship.

Regional airlines as we know them would cease to exist almost overnight and would either evolve into a normal airline with competitive jobs and pay or dissolve away.

Your airline would no longer have the threat of your job hanging over you because you would have choices.

Of course this system would not benefit free loader lazy pilots who barely pass their checkrides, call in sick all the time and lack any real personality because they wouldn't be able to hide their shortcomings.

Of course unions and contracts can still exist without seniority lists and vice versa (despite the myth that many pilots believe they are mutual requirements) but since pilots' unions are the main pusher of the seniority system it probably wouldn't work without getting rid of them.

The real problem is helping pilots see past this narrow view of reality.