New Mesa Thread
07-24-2015, 05:02 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Position: Airbus FO
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by deltajuliet
The new TA:
Obviously we'll need to read and analyze it, so at the moment we're dealing in hypotheticals and a general but vague idea of what to expect.
First off are pay rates. While it wouldn't be anything impressive, most of our less senior pilots would seriously consider industry average rates. That said, our expectations are being managed to an extent that we may not even get that... It's true we aren't mainline and their profits aren't necessarily correlated to ours, but with the lost decade finally coming to an end (hopefully) and in an era of record profits, it's pretty awful if we can't even secure regional industry average. Presumably this contract was finished to give confidence to mainline partners and recruit more FO's, but if pay has only increased negligibly that won't attract anyone. The exception would be if 1st year rates are dramatically improved but nobody else's are, in which case, I think we'd vote it down.
Scheduling: this seems to be the bread and butter of the new contract, but if there's not even a min day, what's the point? Transparency with the reserve buffers is nice but not enough on its own. I'm tired of sitting a whole day then doing one leg back.
We'll see what's in it soon. I'm not saying "Burn this place down," that hasn't worked out for numerous other pilot groups both historically and recently. However, I don't see the point in passing a TA with only negligible gains, particularly if it's a 5 year term. Maybe we'll get a little better, worst case scenario we stay where we are.
Obviously we'll need to read and analyze it, so at the moment we're dealing in hypotheticals and a general but vague idea of what to expect.
First off are pay rates. While it wouldn't be anything impressive, most of our less senior pilots would seriously consider industry average rates. That said, our expectations are being managed to an extent that we may not even get that... It's true we aren't mainline and their profits aren't necessarily correlated to ours, but with the lost decade finally coming to an end (hopefully) and in an era of record profits, it's pretty awful if we can't even secure regional industry average. Presumably this contract was finished to give confidence to mainline partners and recruit more FO's, but if pay has only increased negligibly that won't attract anyone. The exception would be if 1st year rates are dramatically improved but nobody else's are, in which case, I think we'd vote it down.
Scheduling: this seems to be the bread and butter of the new contract, but if there's not even a min day, what's the point? Transparency with the reserve buffers is nice but not enough on its own. I'm tired of sitting a whole day then doing one leg back.
We'll see what's in it soon. I'm not saying "Burn this place down," that hasn't worked out for numerous other pilot groups both historically and recently. However, I don't see the point in passing a TA with only negligible gains, particularly if it's a 5 year term. Maybe we'll get a little better, worst case scenario we stay where we are.
07-24-2015, 05:12 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Position: Airbus FO
Posts: 278
That quick upgrade is starting to slow down at all Regionals. There are not that many airplanes to be awarded anymore. The dust is settling. So even if this contract passes, it is doubtful we will get much more flying. If we don't, the bottom half of our employee group will be stuck as FO's making whatever they voted in. We do have power to get industry average and inflation increases this time. I don't need the growth. You might. There just isn't much left out there. So becareful what FO wages you are willing to accept. You might have to live with it longer then you expected. You newbies all make us Mesa guys who went through the past 10 years of pain like we are the problem. We are actually looking out for the long term of the industry. If you keep working for less then the other guy, it will continue to be a race to the bottom. Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Virgin America are great examples of the new "Regionals" that are doing flying for half the pay of a Legacy. Eventually they will get big and hurt the Legacy carriers. So at some point you have to realize you are worth more and hold the line. Harder to do at a regional since we are essentially contractors but it has to start somewhere. The low FO pay was created by your buddy pilots that worked before you and did the same thing you newbies are doing. Selling out.
07-24-2015, 05:15 PM
#13
sippin' dat koolaid
Joined APC: Jun 2013
Position: gear slinger
Posts: 982
I am glad to see the 50 seat base pay for CAs going away.
07-24-2015, 05:21 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 977
Originally Posted by 404yxl
There are no pilots left to replace the Mesa pilots. Vote in subpar wages if you want. All this flying could be done at mainline for mainline rates and they would still make billions.
My guess is it improves pay for new hires, just enough to keep enticing them to come to Mesa without throwing much to the current pilots on the list.
Even if they try to shut down Mesa with a no vote, it would take years to try and replace them, and by then that plan would not work out to well unless the Mesa pilots replace themselves.
My guess is it improves pay for new hires, just enough to keep enticing them to come to Mesa without throwing much to the current pilots on the list.
Even if they try to shut down Mesa with a no vote, it would take years to try and replace them, and by then that plan would not work out to well unless the Mesa pilots replace themselves.
1) Every single regional in the entire United States achieves contracts paying the same wages as mainline pilots--only then, through decades and decades of pattern-bargaining, would mainline carrier's have a financial incentive to insource regional flying/airframes
or
2) Mainline pilots somehow achieve 100% scope on all transport category aircraft
I personally don't see either of the above two scenarios playing out in my lifetime, without a serious overhaul of the RLA/NMB, or federal legislation requiring all flying marketed/ticketed/sold by a particular carrier to be flown by pilots in the direct employ of that carrier.
It is delusional folly to think that any regional--or any combination of regionals--has any ability to push mainline carriers to insource feed. We're simply fleas on a fly on a frog on a log.
07-24-2015, 05:23 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: CRJ 900
Posts: 131
One thing that will be interesting in this vote is that there will be a fairly large number of pilots that won't be eligible to vote because they have not been here a year. This will put a lot of power in the hands of those that have been here well before the hiring picked up. Vote aside I think a lot of the future at this place hinges on additional aircraft. I run into FOs who are already looking to leave to better paying FO gigs. How the TA factors into additional aircraft will be anyone's guess.
07-24-2015, 05:36 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 977
Originally Posted by wt932051
That quick upgrade is starting to slow down at all Regionals. There are not that many airplanes to be awarded anymore. The dust is settling. So even if this contract passes, it is doubtful we will get much more flying. If we don't, the bottom half of our employee group will be stuck as FO's making whatever they voted in. We do have power to get industry average and inflation increases this time. I don't need the growth. You might. There just isn't much left out there. So becareful what FO wages you are willing to accept. You might have to live with it longer then you expected. You newbies all make us Mesa guys who went through the past 10 years of pain like we are the problem. We are actually looking out for the long term of the industry. If you keep working for less then the other guy, it will continue to be a race to the bottom. Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Virgin America are great examples of the new "Regionals" that are doing flying for half the pay of a Legacy. Eventually they will get big and hurt the Legacy carriers. So at some point you have to realize you are worth more and hold the line. Harder to do at a regional since we are essentially contractors but it has to start somewhere. The low FO pay was created by your buddy pilots that worked before you and did the same thing you newbies are doing. Selling out.
Methinks you weren't doing anything other than looking out for your own Captain seat/salary while flying here over the last decade. Otherwise, why didn't you make a stand and start all over as an FO at an "industry-leading" carrier like XJet/Envoy/ASA?
I'm not judging you for staying here for a decade--I love Mesa, I love our chief pilots, and I love our training department/laid-back corporate culture. I would've done the exact same thing you did (seniority/QOL/upgrade times mean everything). But don't try to twist your decision to stay here all that time into some sort of claim that you were "doing it for the industry"--it's insulting to people who actually lost their jobs making stands against low pay and poor working conditions at other regionals, instead of accepting it out of self-interest for a decade.
I wised up and realized that it's smarter to do what's best for my individual bottom-line, rather than make a stand and put my neck on the chopping-block. Coming to Mesa was the best decision of my life. I just don't think you get to make the claim that you "sacrificed" unless you actually lived through a furlough/downgrade/etc. by making a stand. Have you?
Lastly, please don't patronize the new guys--many of them are highly informed XJet/Envoy/CommutAir/Colgan/Pinnacle refugees who came here for the fast upgrade after sacrificing years of their lives at higher-paying regionals while you enjoyed your "decade of sacrifice" in a left-seat that you kept b/c you fly for the lowest-cost carrier.
I know you want your decade of service at low wages to mean something--I get that completely--but "sacrifice" is a relative term, and I don't think you're using it accurately here.
Last edited by flapshalfspeed; 07-24-2015 at 05:46 PM.
07-24-2015, 05:45 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Position: 175 Left
Posts: 1,539
Boom. All love flaps. Love. No homo though.
07-24-2015, 06:11 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: CRJ CA
Posts: 180
What Flaps said... much wisdom there.
07-24-2015, 06:52 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 233
Flaps has the post of the day.
filler
filler
07-24-2015, 07:06 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: CRJ 900
Posts: 131
Without movement and new aircraft I think it is a moot point as to how the TA goes. It doesn't sound like it will compete with the many other regionals hiring right now. If you are not going to upgrade quick here I don't understand why any one would stay. There are too many other regionals with huge pay incentives and better QOL. I think we are on the verge of seeing a huge exodus of FOs. If you are going to get stuck as an FO somewhere, I don't think Mesa is offering enough in the existing or new contract to wait it out. I could be wrong but it seems like 90% of new hires are here for movement and upgrade, 10% for base options.
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