Horizon or not?
10-23-2016, 08:26 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by Cruz5350
I've literally logged some of the first 121 legs in Q400's and 175's and a couple months later they look the same as the ratty old 1900's 340's and CRJ's I've flown...
That's just my entitled attitude though, I should just be lucky to fly an airplane with Alaska painted on the side amirite
10-23-2016, 08:52 PM
#12
Respek
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,603
Originally Posted by snackysmores
True, still doesn't mean you deserve to sit in a space mired in filth though.
That's just my entitled attitude though, I should just be lucky to fly an airplane with Alaska painted on the side amirite
That's just my entitled attitude though, I should just be lucky to fly an airplane with Alaska painted on the side amirite
10-24-2016, 05:01 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by snackysmores
1. Alaska decides to stop being an evil greedy corporation and understands in today's market (most) new hire pilots will not tolerate living on food stamps their first year. The company and union work out an LOA that brings us up to industry standard. Next year the jets begin to arrive, staffing won't be an issue, we grow 13 airplanes and the upgrade time goes back down to the ~2 year range. Life on the Q400 will continue to be terrible as PBS is implemented and the awful schedules continually get worse. Life on the jet will be amazing and superior than the Q400 in every way imaginable.
2. Alaska continues the status quo and refuses to pay pilots more. It becomes apparent the operation cannot be staffed and Alaska issues a nuclear threat "take these concessions or we're giving the jets away to Skywest." The pilots hold their ground and Alaska gives the jets away. Then the great exodus begins as FOs realize they will never upgrade since 90% of our captains are lifers, and bail to other regionals. Horizon later dies a slow but steady death.
2. Alaska continues the status quo and refuses to pay pilots more. It becomes apparent the operation cannot be staffed and Alaska issues a nuclear threat "take these concessions or we're giving the jets away to Skywest." The pilots hold their ground and Alaska gives the jets away. Then the great exodus begins as FOs realize they will never upgrade since 90% of our captains are lifers, and bail to other regionals. Horizon later dies a slow but steady death.
10-24-2016, 08:54 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Frieght Dog
Posts: 102
Originally Posted by snackysmores
That's a difficult question to answer.
A new hire on the Q400 will have an infinitely poorer experience than a new hire on the jet.
We also have a few variables that make predicting our future difficult:
1. We have a serious problem attracting new hires here, and Alaska refuses to acknowledge reality and work with our union to come up with a solution that brings us up to industry standard.
2. Because of the aforementioned problem, management is threatening our future flying if we cannot get new hires here to staff the Q400s when the jet comes online (e.g. "blame the pilots for our staffing problems")
3. Because we don't know whether or not our operation will be staffed, we can't predict the next two years because we don't know if Q400s will be parked or not. Management has made it clear they do not want to park ANY planes next year, however finding an additional 78 FO's in addition to normal attrition will be next to impossible unless things change.
4. No new hire in their right mind would take a Q400 class date when the jet classes are running simultaneously. This will lead to new hires saying in the interview "Give me the jet or I'm outta here."
Anyway, I see things playing out in a couple ways:
1. Alaska decides to stop being an evil greedy corporation and understands in today's market (most) new hire pilots will not tolerate living on food stamps their first year. The company and union work out an LOA that brings us up to industry standard. Next year the jets begin to arrive, staffing won't be an issue, we grow 13 airplanes and the upgrade time goes back down to the ~2 year range. Life on the Q400 will continue to be terrible as PBS is implemented and the awful schedules continually get worse. Life on the jet will be amazing and superior than the Q400 in every way imaginable.
2. Alaska continues the status quo and refuses to pay pilots more. It becomes apparent the operation cannot be staffed and Alaska issues a nuclear threat "take these concessions or we're giving the jets away to Skywest." The pilots hold their ground and Alaska gives the jets away. Then the great exodus begins as FOs realize they will never upgrade since 90% of our captains are lifers, and bail to other regionals. Horizon later dies a slow but steady death.
Come sit for 12 hours, 6 legs a day in our state-of-the-art Q400s! Never missed a cleaning cycle! (hint: because there isn't one and they've never been cleaned in years!)
A new hire on the Q400 will have an infinitely poorer experience than a new hire on the jet.
We also have a few variables that make predicting our future difficult:
1. We have a serious problem attracting new hires here, and Alaska refuses to acknowledge reality and work with our union to come up with a solution that brings us up to industry standard.
2. Because of the aforementioned problem, management is threatening our future flying if we cannot get new hires here to staff the Q400s when the jet comes online (e.g. "blame the pilots for our staffing problems")
3. Because we don't know whether or not our operation will be staffed, we can't predict the next two years because we don't know if Q400s will be parked or not. Management has made it clear they do not want to park ANY planes next year, however finding an additional 78 FO's in addition to normal attrition will be next to impossible unless things change.
4. No new hire in their right mind would take a Q400 class date when the jet classes are running simultaneously. This will lead to new hires saying in the interview "Give me the jet or I'm outta here."
Anyway, I see things playing out in a couple ways:
1. Alaska decides to stop being an evil greedy corporation and understands in today's market (most) new hire pilots will not tolerate living on food stamps their first year. The company and union work out an LOA that brings us up to industry standard. Next year the jets begin to arrive, staffing won't be an issue, we grow 13 airplanes and the upgrade time goes back down to the ~2 year range. Life on the Q400 will continue to be terrible as PBS is implemented and the awful schedules continually get worse. Life on the jet will be amazing and superior than the Q400 in every way imaginable.
2. Alaska continues the status quo and refuses to pay pilots more. It becomes apparent the operation cannot be staffed and Alaska issues a nuclear threat "take these concessions or we're giving the jets away to Skywest." The pilots hold their ground and Alaska gives the jets away. Then the great exodus begins as FOs realize they will never upgrade since 90% of our captains are lifers, and bail to other regionals. Horizon later dies a slow but steady death.
Come sit for 12 hours, 6 legs a day in our state-of-the-art Q400s! Never missed a cleaning cycle! (hint: because there isn't one and they've never been cleaned in years!)
Assuming the unicorn arrives and the contract improves, I wonder:
1. Won't a new-hire on the jet be subjected to permanent low-seniority due to FOs transitioning from the Q?
2. Will the smaller bases (MFR, BOI) close?
Thanks for your prognostications, all!
Hope your management raises the bar for you... Godspeed!
10-24-2016, 12:22 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
As it stands no current FOs will be able to fly the jet unless they've been here more than 4 years. An FO would be a fool to bid FO on the jet because that would lock them out from bidding CA for 2 more years. It's effectively a 6 year seat lock.
So new hires who get in the first jet class will have super seniority for PBS, weekends/holidays off, lineholders etc. Their pay and quality of life will dwarf any veteran FO who's been stuck on the Q.
Management said no base closures for 2017, for what that's worth.
So new hires who get in the first jet class will have super seniority for PBS, weekends/holidays off, lineholders etc. Their pay and quality of life will dwarf any veteran FO who's been stuck on the Q.
Management said no base closures for 2017, for what that's worth.
10-24-2016, 12:24 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by greenroute
No you missed the obvious one, which is that the pilots don't hold their ground and take concessions again, life there continues to suck, but the company manages to attract enough people who want to live in the northwest that they can keep the airline sortof staffed.
10-25-2016, 05:07 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 6Legs12hrsMinRest
Posts: 25
The people here are great, but don't come here just for that. Quality of life is in a graveyard spiral on the Q. Don't expect to hold a line for a year 1 1/2. 12 hr days for 3 - 3.5 credits looks to be the norm right now. Don't come unless they give you the Jet, but understand you will won't upgrade in it unless you got 15-20 years here. Most FO here won't ever see that Jet. If you get the Q you better have your S### in order or it will eat your lunch. You never really know what the FMS will do cause it just randomly does weird s###, so you gotta do a Jedi work around outta the blue on approach sometimes. Snacky you going to be the last Q Starfighter here with the rest of us.
10-25-2016, 06:48 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by AFlight511
Snacky you going to be the last Q Starfighter here with the rest of us.
You could probably make your own Q400 drinking game: On a 4 day trip you have to take a shot for every caution light you get. You also have to drink if you get "Check NAV source," or "FD Mode Inhibit" (alright alright, that's just to screw with the new guys).
10-25-2016, 08:45 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 216
It'll try and take off into the sunset, only to suffer a powerplant message on startup and never actually leave the gate.
Subsequent attempts to leave PDX will be met with APU failures, flap failures, "yaw damper not centered" messages, and doors that refuse to close, so they'll eventually give up and just hack the thing into truck-sized pieces to be driven to the scrapyard.
Also, your drinking game is a terrible idea, since we'd end up with our entire pilot group being hospitalized for alcohol poisoning within a week.
Subsequent attempts to leave PDX will be met with APU failures, flap failures, "yaw damper not centered" messages, and doors that refuse to close, so they'll eventually give up and just hack the thing into truck-sized pieces to be driven to the scrapyard.
Also, your drinking game is a terrible idea, since we'd end up with our entire pilot group being hospitalized for alcohol poisoning within a week.
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