Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Pilot Lounge > Safety
Asiana 777 Crash at SFO >

Asiana 777 Crash at SFO

Notices
Safety Accidents, suggestions on improving safety, etc

Asiana 777 Crash at SFO

Old 07-02-2014, 02:49 PM
  #971  
Gets Weekends Off
 
beech1980's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: B-737
Posts: 696
Default

Is it because of the long spool up time on those big 777 fans?
beech1980 is offline  
Old 07-02-2014, 06:32 PM
  #972  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Airhoss's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,708
Default

Not my experience at all with the 777 and auto throttles. I almost always turned them off on a visual. I did however turn off the arm switches which will provide you wake up in certain circumstances.
Airhoss is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 04:00 PM
  #973  
Gets Weekends Off
 
KC10 FATboy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,094
Default

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
They were in FLCH. Autothrottle wake-up is inhibited 100% of the time in FLCH.

....and that is quite a poor design.
I don't believe it is a poor design because the entire idea of FLCH is to pitch for speed. Had the autopilot been engaged, they never would have stalled. He put the airplane into a pitch for airspeed mode and didn't hold the required pitch. They also failed miserably at basic airmanship and CRM/TEM.
KC10 FATboy is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 04:02 PM
  #974  
Gets Weekends Off
 
KC10 FATboy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,094
Default

Originally Posted by DCA A321 FO View Post
I say this because I shot a VNAV (similar to a V/S) approach the other day when the ILS was OTS for the first time in 6 years on the airplane. It was a non-event. In fact, when we saw the ILS OTS on the atis, the other FO and I said, cool, we get to practice a VNAV for real.
Really? I fly a lot of VNAV approaches, especially on visuals (a visual backed up by the RNAV approach).
KC10 FATboy is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 10:17 PM
  #975  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: A330
Posts: 1,043
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy View Post
Really? I fly a lot of VNAV approaches, especially on visuals (a visual backed up by the RNAV approach).
Really dude, that's why my company put a couple quick review pages in our QRH (Quick Reference Handbook), because some of us don't shoot them that often.
DCA A321 FO is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 10:24 PM
  #976  
Da Hudge
 
80ktsClamp's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy View Post
Really? I fly a lot of VNAV approaches, especially on visuals (a visual backed up by the RNAV approach).
Remember we have our quick reference cards in the FAT for everything non-ILS to make all the non-ILS stuff a non-event. Other airlines may not have the same handy items. Additionally, with the VNAV to the feather protocol that we have, we run that stuff even on ILS's a lot more than other carriers may.
80ktsClamp is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 10:27 PM
  #977  
Da Hudge
 
80ktsClamp's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Default

Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy View Post
I don't believe it is a poor design because the entire idea of FLCH is to pitch for speed. Had the autopilot been engaged, they never would have stalled. He put the airplane into a pitch for airspeed mode and didn't hold the required pitch. They also failed miserably at basic airmanship and CRM/TEM.
It's strange at the least with the hybrid design of the 777. It poses as a super modern airliner, but yet in more than a few modes than other super modern airliners will just let you go there. "Wake-up" is a stall protection that they are trained is there. 777 pilots in most arenas are trained to never turn the A/T off. The A/T column on the FMA was green and the saturated pilots assumed it was active I'm sure.

It was a combination of poor airmanship, poor systems management/awareness, poor energy management, and the strange no wake-up in FLCH sure didn't help matters.
80ktsClamp is offline  
Old 07-04-2014, 06:29 PM
  #978  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Default

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
It's strange at the least with the hybrid design of the 777. It poses as a super modern airliner, but yet in more than a few modes than other super modern airliners will just let you go there. "Wake-up" is a stall protection that they are trained is there. 777 pilots in most arenas are trained to never turn the A/T off. The A/T column on the FMA was green and the saturated pilots assumed it was active I'm sure.

It was a combination of poor airmanship, poor systems management/awareness, poor energy management, and the strange no wake-up in FLCH sure didn't help matters.
All of the above, automation should help to prevent all of the above not enhance the failures.
iceman49 is offline  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:03 PM
  #979  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Airhoss's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,708
Default

Originally Posted by Airhoss View Post
Not my experience at all with the 777 and auto throttles. I almost always turned them off on a visual. I did however turn off the arm switches which will provide you wake up in certain circumstances.
Should have been, I did NOT turn off the arms switches.....
Airhoss is offline  
Old 07-05-2014, 01:04 AM
  #980  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 245
Default

It is not just the 777. The 787 and 747-8 have the exact same logic for A/T wakeup.

The reason is the auto throttle can't wakeup to provide speed protection in FL CH SPD, VNAV SPD, TO/GA because the pitch is controlling the speed.

You can't have the speed controlled by both pitch and auto throttle.

They had V/S selected, set missed approach altitude, and at this point were very high. PF selected FL CH to get down, but the A/C started to climb to the MA altitude.

PF pulled thrust levers to idle, and A/T mode went to hold.

Initially in the descent he was more or less following the F/D.

Once the PF got low and started to shallow out he was no longer respecting the F/D.

As the FCOM states, AFDS speed protection is provided through the elevators in FL CH SPD, VNAV SPD, and TO/GA. But you have to follow the F/D.

The PM had the F/D off.

If the PF wanted to ignore the F/D guidance, he should have turned off the F/D.

If there is no F/D active, than the A/T wake feature is now available.

The design is good, and in fact really the only plausible way.

How any training department can claim that the A/T will wake up in all situations is irresponsible at best.
cougar is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ToiletDuck
Safety
5
08-08-2012 09:04 PM
vagabond
Technical
4
12-31-2008 04:13 PM
Piloto Noche
Cargo
46
12-02-2007 10:16 PM
vagabond
Technical
3
09-06-2007 02:51 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices