Malaysian 777 missing
03-16-2014, 03:19 AM
#401
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: FAA ATSI VSRP ERC
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by Mazster
Very interesting read. I think many questions could have been answered if someone threw some hardware up there to find them...maybe even identify WHO was in the cockpit...or am I watching too many movies.
Yes, you have been watching too many movies.
03-16-2014, 04:09 AM
#402
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Mazster
I'm new here so I'm going to duck after posing this question.
Wouldn't you think that after a couple of hours missing, but being detected by primary radar returns as an unidentified aircraft, one of the countries in the area would have scrambled a couple of fighters to find and shadow the "intruder"?
Wouldn't you think that after a couple of hours missing, but being detected by primary radar returns as an unidentified aircraft, one of the countries in the area would have scrambled a couple of fighters to find and shadow the "intruder"?
03-16-2014, 04:49 AM
#403
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Originally Posted by Mazster
Regarding interception...in the Payne Stewart case fighters were sent to try and identify the problem and they could see that the cockpit glass was all frozen and opaque inside, giving them a fairly good indication what the situation was. I still think it would have been worth the effort to try an intercept.
MH370: Night.
Having flown alongside a lot of tankers at night in my career, I can tell you if the cockpit lights are low, you don't see anything.
If the lights are on high, you can barely see anything.
Originally Posted by ATCBob
That's not really practical in a small country like Malaysia where a jet can overfly it in 15-20 minutes.....
Actually we did have intercept aircraft on alert pre-9/11. Not many, but there were always some ready. NORAD would scramble them and ATC would work them to the intercept because NORAD at the time only looked outward and didn't have our radar feeds.
Actually we did have intercept aircraft on alert pre-9/11. Not many, but there were always some ready. NORAD would scramble them and ATC would work them to the intercept because NORAD at the time only looked outward and didn't have our radar feeds.
As to the second, yes, I know that; I worked some air defense plans in the mid 90s. Unfortunately, most of our "Continental Air Defense" was more about show than reality. While a handful of jets (maybe 20-24 nationwide, by my count) might be cocked and armed at the few alert shelters we had, I don't think pilots were on 5-minute alert like you saw in 1950s Armageddon movies unless there was reason to believe a Russian attack was imminent. I would guess the response time was closer to 20-30 minutes. Unless he's on alert sitting in the cockpit, it would be generous to estimate he could get from his bed to being strapped-in under 5 minutes; 5 to start and do checks, and 5 more to taxi out. 15 just to be ready to take off.
During that time, a Mach 0.80 target has moved 120 miles.
In the final scene of "Top Gun," Val Kilmer asks Tom Cruise: "Where are you, Maverick?!?!"
Maverick, who was ordered launched by the CAG when the fight hit 100 miles, infamously replies:
"Maverick is supersonic; I'll be there in thirty seconds."
If Mav could really go 100 miles in 30 seconds, that's 200 miles a minute.
(That's Mach 20. Twenty).
The range of fighters such as F-15s, -16s, and -18s drops precipitously when in afterburner for max-Mach pursuits.
So, while in theory a fighter could chase him down, the reality is, if not launched in a window of opportunity, he won't have enough gas to do it.
Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 03-16-2014 at 05:06 AM.
03-16-2014, 04:56 AM
#404
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 737 right
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by F224
No, just because the TSA strip searches grandma does not mean that she's capable of bombing an airliner. SHES NOT!
This airplane is at the bottom of the ocean somewhere, period.
This airplane is at the bottom of the ocean somewhere, period.
So little is known as it is and what if they successfully made it to an airfield that A. Had zero cell phone service for passengers to call for help if the passengers are even alive anymore and B. now have the chance to refuel an aircraft with one of the longest ranges around and prepare it for a strike against the US?
03-16-2014, 05:47 AM
#405
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Posts: 974
Originally Posted by FLY6584
That's not what I'm talking about. It is clear someone successfully took control of the aircraft. Was it the FO or someone else? That is yet to be determined, but we do know someone took control of it and attempted to hide the fact they had control of it.
Pilots might cooperate with orders to go dark and head to Somlia at the start if a convincing detonator was shown or other form of intimidation by a guest in the cockpit. Then halfway to Africa they see an opportunity to fight back?
03-16-2014, 05:58 AM
#406
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by FLY6584
That's not what I'm talking about. It is clear someone successfully took control of the aircraft. Was it the FO or someone else? That is yet to be determined, but we do know someone took control of it and attempted to hide the fact they had control of it.
So little is known as it is and what if they successfully made it to an airfield that A. Had zero cell phone service for passengers to call for help if the passengers are even alive anymore and B. now have the chance to refuel an aircraft with one of the longest ranges around and prepare it for a strike against the US?
So little is known as it is and what if they successfully made it to an airfield that A. Had zero cell phone service for passengers to call for help if the passengers are even alive anymore and B. now have the chance to refuel an aircraft with one of the longest ranges around and prepare it for a strike against the US?
Africa is the exception here because of minimal radar coverage and a lack of intercept ability, but after that what route could these would-be terrorists use to sneak into US airspace?
Just hypothesizing here...
03-16-2014, 06:14 AM
#407
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 737 right
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Been sitting on the sidelines just reading this thread, but I find it highly unlikely an aircraft of that size would be able to penetrate anywhere near a high profile target within the US. I mean there are so many radar facilities that would have to miss and/or otherwise ignore it.
Africa is the exception here because of minimal radar coverage and a lack of intercept ability, but after that what route could these would-be terrorists use to sneak into US airspace?
Just hypothesizing here...
Africa is the exception here because of minimal radar coverage and a lack of intercept ability, but after that what route could these would-be terrorists use to sneak into US airspace?
Just hypothesizing here...
I just find it highly unlikely that someone hijacked the plane just to run it into the water 6hrs later unless of course you are right and a struggle ensued later on that resulted in the aircraft being driven into the water.
03-16-2014, 06:31 AM
#408
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,217
Originally Posted by Sorensen
So, hypothesis! Plane flying at altitude, has a mid-air collision with a smaller high altitude something, a drone, a small cargo plane, falling satellite pieces! Ok a long shot, but with all the planes in the sky it is a wonder that there are not more possibilities or consideration of collisions.
The burning debris Mike McKay sees is the result of the collision, BUT the flames seen are the smaller plane/drone/falling star whatever.
Flight MH370's 777 is a big plane, nicely stable in the air and it's wide body giving it great stability (flight MH370 does not go down). The cockpit area is damaged in the strike, windows implode, all electronics destroyed, responders go off as per switching off theory, but only because part of the cockpit area or where the switching is located is destroyed!
Pilots are dead, explosive decompression dominos throughout the plane, maybe some oxygen masks drop and some passengers still remain conscious. The cockpit area is destroyed, no chance of recovery.....BUT, one of the three slave computer systems, located in the rear of the plane takes over autopilot, the plane was bumped from it's flight path due to the impact, but after the slave computer came online it stabilized the plane(hence the direction change). The status is now a new heading assumed correct by the new computers autopilot, the autopilot oversees maintenance of all flight speeds, heights etc. nobody from within the plane crew or passengers if conscious are able to do anything, the plane now has no cockpit or even lost 5 meters of it's front section. Violent wind blasts through the plane and may cause significant speed loss! The plane fly's under the autopilot which goes another 500 km in one direction, over the Andaman Sea, then adjusts course according to degree of course change preset for a location beacon approximately near Hong Kong (but the plane is over Andaman Sea), this preset adjustment sends the plane deep into the Indian Ocean at altitude until it runs out of fuel. Or, the direction change takes it north into the second tracking zone assumed now by the satellite responders.
The burning debris Mike McKay sees is the result of the collision, BUT the flames seen are the smaller plane/drone/falling star whatever.
Flight MH370's 777 is a big plane, nicely stable in the air and it's wide body giving it great stability (flight MH370 does not go down). The cockpit area is damaged in the strike, windows implode, all electronics destroyed, responders go off as per switching off theory, but only because part of the cockpit area or where the switching is located is destroyed!
Pilots are dead, explosive decompression dominos throughout the plane, maybe some oxygen masks drop and some passengers still remain conscious. The cockpit area is destroyed, no chance of recovery.....BUT, one of the three slave computer systems, located in the rear of the plane takes over autopilot, the plane was bumped from it's flight path due to the impact, but after the slave computer came online it stabilized the plane(hence the direction change). The status is now a new heading assumed correct by the new computers autopilot, the autopilot oversees maintenance of all flight speeds, heights etc. nobody from within the plane crew or passengers if conscious are able to do anything, the plane now has no cockpit or even lost 5 meters of it's front section. Violent wind blasts through the plane and may cause significant speed loss! The plane fly's under the autopilot which goes another 500 km in one direction, over the Andaman Sea, then adjusts course according to degree of course change preset for a location beacon approximately near Hong Kong (but the plane is over Andaman Sea), this preset adjustment sends the plane deep into the Indian Ocean at altitude until it runs out of fuel. Or, the direction change takes it north into the second tracking zone assumed now by the satellite responders.
But damaging it such that it keeps flying for hours is getting really improbable.
But an object hitting and disabling the cockpit could not re-program the FMS, so the fact that the plane was on a new flight plan pretty much rules out collision with anything.
Unless some 777 dudes have a good explanation how pilots fighting a problem could accidentally load an old flight plan into the FMS (maybe while trying to return to land), deliberate action is now probably the horse in the lead.
03-16-2014, 06:43 AM
#409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,036
Originally Posted by FLY6584
That's not what I'm talking about. It is clear someone successfully took control of the aircraft. Was it the FO or someone else? That is yet to be determined, but we do know someone took control of it and attempted to hide the fact they had control of it.
So little is known as it is and what if they successfully made it to an airfield that A. Had zero cell phone service for passengers to call for help if the passengers are even alive anymore and B. now have the chance to refuel an aircraft with one of the longest ranges around and prepare it for a strike against the US?
So little is known as it is and what if they successfully made it to an airfield that A. Had zero cell phone service for passengers to call for help if the passengers are even alive anymore and B. now have the chance to refuel an aircraft with one of the longest ranges around and prepare it for a strike against the US?
If someone can sneak a 777 into US airspace undetected and successfully pull of an attack, we have real self defense issues. I don't think enemy bombers would bother to use a transponder if they attacked us and yet no one is worrying about that. Everyone relax.
03-16-2014, 06:55 AM
#410
Working weekends
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 2,384
Originally Posted by Mazster
Regarding interception...in the Payne Stewart case fighters were sent to try and identify the problem and they could see that the cockpit glass was all frozen and opaque inside, giving them a fairly good indication what the situation was. I still think it would have been worth the effort to try an intercept.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
bgmann
Foreign
25
01-30-2008 11:26 AM
