KBED Hanscom Field Crash
04-09-2015, 04:39 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Is it complacency or their SOP? No after start checklist, no taxi checklist, no before takeoff checklist, and obviously no flight control check. At some point a line is drawn between someone just messing up one small thing via complacency to downright negligence of just strapping a jet to your butt, lighting up the motors, and pushing the power up no questions asked.
It is an SOP born of complacency.
04-09-2015, 07:24 AM
#62
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
'Kick the tires and light the fires' - - even it is their SOP - - is complacency.
It is an SOP born of complacency.
It is an SOP born of complacency.
04-09-2015, 07:28 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Is it complacency or their SOP? No after start checklist, no taxi checklist, no before takeoff checklist, and obviously no flight control check. At some point a line is drawn between someone just messing up one small thing via complacency to downright negligence of just strapping a jet to your butt, lighting up the motors, and pushing the power up no questions asked.
Why would anybody push the power up without at least wiggling the flight controls? There's no MAP light for "gust lock installed", but all planes have gust locks!
04-14-2015, 05:11 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
Gross negligence
Had dinner last night with a couple who are friends, one of whom is an attorney. One of the topics of conversation was a case of negligence. Specifically, what constituted simple negligence from gross negligence.
What I learned, when applied to this accident, was that this was a case of "willful, wanton, and reckless conduct", which resides in between a case of negligence and one of actual intent.
Two things distinguish "willful, wanton, reckless conduct" from "negligence". First, the accused must knowingly or intentionally disregard an unreasonable risk. Second, the risk must entail a high degree of probability of causing substantial harm.
It is apparent that both criteria were fulfilled in this accident.
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
"Data from a quick access recorder installed in the airplane involved in the accident revealed that out of 176 takeoffs, only two complete and 16 partial control checks were identified. There was none identified for the accident flight."
Another 16 partial checks were performed, or .090 of the total.
In other words, 90% of the time these guys were pushing past V1 in a large-cabin business jet ASSUMING there were no issues of any kind with their flight controls. 90% of the time they were failing to perform basic, perfunctory checks required by the FAA and the aircraft manufacturer. Not knowing beyond a reasonable doubt there were no known issues, just assuming it.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
This was complacency.
IMO, using terms like "complacency" or "negligence" doesn't accurately describe the dangerous, criminal mentality of this flight crew. Their "complacency" led them into being willfully and wantonly reckless in exercising the privileges of their professional licenses/ratings, which is what they were truly guilty of. Complacency is only a factor in/of their actual offense.
For a private pilot, yes...complacency, even negligence. For a professional flight crew, nothing less than willful and reckless conduct. We KNOW better than to ignore checklists; we are PAID to know better AND to utilize best practices at all times. The only possible exception to this...in the professional community...is for test pilots alone (which is what this flight crew were acting as).
IMO, any and every case of a professional flight crew failing to properly utilize checklists is a case of willful, wanton, and reckless conduct.
If professional aviation wants to rid itself of accidents like these, I believe it would be wise to eliminate the use of term "complacency" and replace it with "willful, wanton, and reckless conduct". Complacency implies an "aw shucks" wrist-slap to the unwary, while the latter implies a prison sentence that would wake professional flight crews like this one up (hopefully).
Had this crew somehow survived this accident, they would indisputably be sitting in prison cells for a very long time. Given the fact that an F/A and 4 others were killed, phrases such as "criminally negligent homicide" would have been used in the legal proceedings.
04-14-2015, 02:29 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by SayAlt
Had dinner last night with a couple who are friends, one of whom is an attorney.
IMO, using terms like "complacency" or "negligence" doesn't accurately describe the dangerous, criminal mentality of this flight crew. Their "complacency" led them into being willfully and wantonly reckless in exercising the privileges of their professional licenses/ratings, which is what they were truly guilty of. Complacency is only a factor in/of their actual offense.
For a private pilot, yes...complacency, even negligence. For a professional flight crew, nothing less than willful and reckless conduct. We KNOW better than to ignore checklists; we are PAID to know better AND to utilize best practices at all times. The only possible exception to this...in the professional community...is for test pilots alone (which is what this flight crew were acting as).
IMO, any and every case of a professional flight crew failing to properly utilize checklists is a case of willful, wanton, and reckless conduct.
If professional aviation wants to rid itself of accidents like these, I believe it would be wise to eliminate the use of term "complacency" and replace it with "willful, wanton, and reckless conduct". Complacency implies an "aw shucks" wrist-slap to the unwary, while the latter implies a prison sentence that would wake professional flight crews like this one up (hopefully).
Had this crew somehow survived this accident, they would indisputably be sitting in prison cells for a very long time. Given the fact that an F/A and 4 others were killed, phrases such as "criminally negligent homicide" would have been used in the legal proceedings.
For a private pilot, yes...complacency, even negligence. For a professional flight crew, nothing less than willful and reckless conduct. We KNOW better than to ignore checklists; we are PAID to know better AND to utilize best practices at all times. The only possible exception to this...in the professional community...is for test pilots alone (which is what this flight crew were acting as).
IMO, any and every case of a professional flight crew failing to properly utilize checklists is a case of willful, wanton, and reckless conduct.
If professional aviation wants to rid itself of accidents like these, I believe it would be wise to eliminate the use of term "complacency" and replace it with "willful, wanton, and reckless conduct". Complacency implies an "aw shucks" wrist-slap to the unwary, while the latter implies a prison sentence that would wake professional flight crews like this one up (hopefully).
Had this crew somehow survived this accident, they would indisputably be sitting in prison cells for a very long time. Given the fact that an F/A and 4 others were killed, phrases such as "criminally negligent homicide" would have been used in the legal proceedings.
Their lack of using the proper checklists is exactly what "complacency" means in the safety world. They thought 'aw....it won't matter, nothing is ever wrong with the flight controls, we do it like this every time,' etc....
Complacency might lead to WILLFUL, WANTON and RECKLESS conduct as seems to have occurred in this situation.
04-20-2015, 11:08 PM
#67
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The report also shows that a pair of aviator sunglasses was found in the gust lock console, which may have altered the movement. A pin in the lever was found to be broken as well.
What a shame on the accident. RIP
04-21-2015, 06:03 AM
#68
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Well there is your first mistake
Don't confuse LEGAL terms with SAFETY terms.
Their lack of using the proper checklists is exactly what "complacency" means in the safety world. They thought 'aw....it won't matter, nothing is ever wrong with the flight controls, we do it like this every time,' etc....
Complacency might lead to WILLFUL, WANTON and RECKLESS conduct as seems to have occurred in this situation.
Don't confuse LEGAL terms with SAFETY terms.
Their lack of using the proper checklists is exactly what "complacency" means in the safety world. They thought 'aw....it won't matter, nothing is ever wrong with the flight controls, we do it like this every time,' etc....
Complacency might lead to WILLFUL, WANTON and RECKLESS conduct as seems to have occurred in this situation.
I used the term "gross negligence" above in a specific and precise manner.
In many other countries, the correct legal term would be manslaughter.
04-22-2015, 03:34 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
This.
I used the term "gross negligence" above in a specific and precise manner.
In many other countries, the correct legal term would be manslaughter.
I used the term "gross negligence" above in a specific and precise manner.
In many other countries, the correct legal term would be manslaughter.
Which once again points to the fact one had better know and understand the exact meaning of LEGAL terms as well as SAFETY terms. If one believes legal terms are of any less importance, let me know how that goes while your butt is parked in a court room playing defendant.
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