mosteam3985

I'm not a scientist but could the "floats with gear extended" mishaps be a high center of gravity thing? I don't know the measurements but it's very obvious on the ramp that a Caravan with fixed gear sitting next to a Caravan with floats/wheels sits a whole heck of a lot lower to the ground. Maybe the aircraft with floats that land and flip with the gear down is because all of that weight is so high off the surface compared to a fixed gear aircraft? Just rambling thoughts that come through my head I guess... It does seem like a fixed gear light aircraft has a much better chance of staying upright than an amphib with the gear extended but I don't know the hard numbers on that. Interesting stuff to ponder.

Timbo

The local Tampa news tonight had a statement from the pilot.

He said he never saw the two people he hit.

There was also a story about a C172 that landed on the beach in MIA today, no injuries.

Timbo

Yes, it's a high CG thing, along with the added drag of the tires being in the water, instead of in the floats...

mosteam3985

I understand that Timbo but the debate in my mind was why the drag from the gear on a fixed wing aircraft ditching in the drink doesnt' cause uhh... "flippage" as often as extended gear on an amphib.

Timbo

Um...because the guys with the fixed gear tried to land on the sand, like this tool did.

Vs. the guys with floats, who tried to land on the water, with their tires down.

I've watched float planes land on wet grass with no problems. No tires, no problems, but put tires into the water, you're going to flip over, floats or no.

mosteam3985

I was muddy with my words. I wasn't speaking on this specific incident but comparing water landings of fixed gear aircraft vs. amphibs with extended gear.

My bad.

Back to the topic at hand.

Timbo

Do you have any video or picts of a fixed gear airplane that landed in the water and stayed right side up? It might have happened, but it's rare.

Timbo

This is what happens when you land on the water, on floats, with the gear down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBkzh0LKe5I

Do you have any video or picts of a fixed gear, little airplane that landed in the water and stayed right side up? It might have happened, but it's rare.

If you've got Bush Tires, you might be able to do this, but you'd better be close to shore when you do!

Alaskan Bush Pilots Amazing landing skills - YouTube

mosteam3985

First off, holy concussion, Batman on that first video. Crap. That looks terrifying.

Second, I guess the only incident I was remembering in my mind was the Caravan ditching in Hawaii recently but I guess that's not really a "small" aircraft. Not in terms of GA anyway...

I don't think I have the nards those dudes have in that second video.... seriously impressive.

All in all this whole topic makes me really think about what actions I'd take in a similar engine out situation. I hope I never have to make the choice.

Just out of curiosity Tim, what would you do in this situation? Aim for the beach or the water? I'd go beach if it was completely unpopulated but water if there were any chance of human life on the shore (which being a Florida summer is almost a guarantee).

Timbo

When I was a kid, we used to land a J3 Cub on the beach, at low tide, so the sand is hard packed (you don't want to land in soft sand or you're going over) but only if there was NOBODY around (we were more concerned about someone turning us into the FAA or take a picture of our N number and turn us in).

I think 99% of us would put it in the water if there were people on the beach. I know I would. The real issue is, don't put yourself into that position (over a populated beach) in the first place.

The incident we are discussing here happened just short of the Venice, FL airport, which is just inland from the Gulf of Mexico beach, with an East-West runway, just south of Sarasota. From what the local (Tampa) news is saying, he had engine trouble and turned to come back into Venice, but didn't make it.

The beaches in Venice are less crowded than in Sarasota, but I think this happened on a Saturday (?) and there would be people on every beach in Florida, unless it was during a thunderstorm. You would have to fly right over the beach either on every T/O or landing. Last night the news reported that the pilot released a statement (through his Lawyer) that said he never saw the two people he hit.

I don't know if he was landing perpendicular to the beach, as in coming straight at from the water, or if he was trying to land parallel to the beach.

BTW, when I was a kid, my dad once flipped a float plane. He had an engine failure flying over Lake Michigan, set up for a dead-stick landing near the shore but when he got closer, he saw there were some swimmers in his landing zone, so he turned away from them, landed on the water but hit the shore going too fast, and it flipped.

He got out ok (plane was a mess) but had a was cut up on his face, broken nose, etc. needed lots of stitches. Ever since then, I've given a lot of though to 'what would I do' if I had to ditch along a beach.

About 10 years ago, I delivered a J3 Cub from Pennsylvania to Florida, flew right down the beach from Charleston, SC to Jacksonville at about 800', then turned inland and climbed. I always felt safe being over a nice long beach. It was in December, so there weren't too many people around in most spots.