Act now: Tell congress safety is at stake
03-23-2017, 08:15 AM
#31
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,217
Originally Posted by Flyboyxc91
I've been instructing making $51K salary flying glass cockpits for the last 1.5 years and I'm now about about to be done... I HAVE LEARNED ALOT. I hated the 1500 hour rule but it hasn't been a deal breaker with me CHOOSING my career path. I have instructed two different places and this last one I would consider staying at longer if the industry was what it was 8 years ago, thankful and even partially from the 1500 hr rule it is better. I would say however to be fair, 1500 hours is a little excessive on the ruling in my humble opinion. I believe 1000 hours is plenty for ANY college major especially if you have a STEM degree (not just an aviation degree)... I have two BS degrees in chemical engineering, and Biology.. went to work for Boeing then to flight school. Flown with tons of guys out of "Aviation Degree" schools that COULDNT do partial Panel compass turns or knew the difference in LPV And LNAV minimums on a GPS RNAV IAP.... BTW I also flew a lot with the aviation grads that were great. Point is the R-ATP because of the aviation degreee is just a marketing money ploy congress passed for these schools to make more money and apease the public. It should be some form of FAA Inspector competency test if applicants go choose to take it or STEM degree graduates R-ATP with certain GPAs etc. I enjoyed my time instructing and will continue to do so even as an airline pilot.
03-23-2017, 08:25 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 918
Why do we burn down our own town? Keep 1500!
Originally Posted by Spike from flyi
No one in Congress is moving toward changing this. As usual, the ALPA Legislative Affairs group is, "out to lunch." (it's headed by a law school drop-out.)
The real threat is Indonesian pilots with BS logbooks coming in on H1B Visas because of the "pilot shortage."
There is no "pilot shortage", there is only a shortage of airlines willing to pay pilots the going rate.
For once, get ahead of this one!
The real threat is Indonesian pilots with BS logbooks coming in on H1B Visas because of the "pilot shortage."
There is no "pilot shortage", there is only a shortage of airlines willing to pay pilots the going rate.
For once, get ahead of this one!
Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.
As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.
Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.
The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."
03-23-2017, 11:18 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
Very well laid out portrayal of how it used to be. I was the lowest time guy in my class at Eagle when I got hired back in late 1991 with 2050 TT and about 320 multi, along with the requisite ATP. The minimums back then were 1500/300 and an ATP, but those were not really competitive times. I seem to recall that most in my class back then had around 4500TT/1000+ Multi.
It was just a given that we were going to have to instruct for a couple of years (a time I still recall fondly), earn our ATP, try to get on with a 135 operation or, if lucky, hopefully get on with a "commuter" back then and sit right seat in a 19 seat Metro or Jetstream. No one screamed that it was unfair, it just was what it was.
On a side note, I and most of my peers felt that we REALLY learned how to fly during our years as instructors. No, we did not exclusively bore holes around the pattern at uncontrolled airports. We gave quite a bit of advanced instruction to pilots earning their Instrument ratings, along with a bit of multi-IFR training - all in the congested airspace of the SoCal LA basin.
During my years at Eagle, I eventually became an IOE check-airman in the EMB145. The total times of the new FO's coming in in those days was at an all-time low - averaging about 500TT/50ME, and sometimes significantly lower - and while these folks were all very sharp individuals, great with procedure, systems, and checklists, they were initially totally overwhelmed by the speed, climb rate, wing loading, FMS, etc. Visual approaches, in particular, proved difficult for most of them. With that said, most eventually caught on and went on to become great FO's and eventually CA's. But it was tough for them initially, as a rule. Prior to that era, the folks who came in with closer to 1000 to 1200+ seemed to adjust to the jets much more easily.
Just my take.
It was just a given that we were going to have to instruct for a couple of years (a time I still recall fondly), earn our ATP, try to get on with a 135 operation or, if lucky, hopefully get on with a "commuter" back then and sit right seat in a 19 seat Metro or Jetstream. No one screamed that it was unfair, it just was what it was.
On a side note, I and most of my peers felt that we REALLY learned how to fly during our years as instructors. No, we did not exclusively bore holes around the pattern at uncontrolled airports. We gave quite a bit of advanced instruction to pilots earning their Instrument ratings, along with a bit of multi-IFR training - all in the congested airspace of the SoCal LA basin.
During my years at Eagle, I eventually became an IOE check-airman in the EMB145. The total times of the new FO's coming in in those days was at an all-time low - averaging about 500TT/50ME, and sometimes significantly lower - and while these folks were all very sharp individuals, great with procedure, systems, and checklists, they were initially totally overwhelmed by the speed, climb rate, wing loading, FMS, etc. Visual approaches, in particular, proved difficult for most of them. With that said, most eventually caught on and went on to become great FO's and eventually CA's. But it was tough for them initially, as a rule. Prior to that era, the folks who came in with closer to 1000 to 1200+ seemed to adjust to the jets much more easily.
Just my take.
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
So true, Spike!
Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.
As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.
Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.
The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."
Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.
As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.
Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.
The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."
03-23-2017, 11:53 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by SoaringSW
There is something to be said about the quality of flight versus the quantity of flight hours. An unfortunate byproduct of the "1500 hour" rule has been the encouragement for students to obtain their CFI rating at 250 hours and "teach" students how to run around the pattern for 750-1250 hours.
Where 135 operations used to be a quality stepping stone for new commercially rated pilots to earn quality flight time, now the 135 minimums require 1200 hours to get started.
These high time rules and a lack of part 91 operations sufficient for time building opportunities is forcing pilots to become instructors whether they want to teach or not. This industry is particularly odd in that our instructors at the Private-commercial levels have some of the least experience in the industry. But we encourage this as a way to bridge the gap between 250 and 1500 hours in many cases.
I think the real solution is probably a mix of the comments here, but primarily a reduction of the part 135 minimums to allow lower risk operations to be conducted by pilots with around 350 hours. This would give some opportunities to build practical experience in the industry and allow pilots to progress towards the ATP minimums without the encouragement to log hundreds of laps around the pattern each month.
This would hopefully drive more industry professionals into the instructing world, and start a circulation of industry knowledge instead of this low level circulation of basic, and in many cases rote knowledge and experience. Encourage pilots to fly more routes instead of laps around the pattern.
Where 135 operations used to be a quality stepping stone for new commercially rated pilots to earn quality flight time, now the 135 minimums require 1200 hours to get started.
These high time rules and a lack of part 91 operations sufficient for time building opportunities is forcing pilots to become instructors whether they want to teach or not. This industry is particularly odd in that our instructors at the Private-commercial levels have some of the least experience in the industry. But we encourage this as a way to bridge the gap between 250 and 1500 hours in many cases.
I think the real solution is probably a mix of the comments here, but primarily a reduction of the part 135 minimums to allow lower risk operations to be conducted by pilots with around 350 hours. This would give some opportunities to build practical experience in the industry and allow pilots to progress towards the ATP minimums without the encouragement to log hundreds of laps around the pattern each month.
This would hopefully drive more industry professionals into the instructing world, and start a circulation of industry knowledge instead of this low level circulation of basic, and in many cases rote knowledge and experience. Encourage pilots to fly more routes instead of laps around the pattern.
You can get an ATP with as low as 750-1250 hours. Also, part 135 minimums are 500 hours. The 1200 hours is for IFR operations.
03-23-2017, 03:23 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 444
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
So true, Spike!
Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.
As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.
Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.
The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."
Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.
As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.
Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.
The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."
03-23-2017, 04:19 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by AZFlyer
I don't think you'll see many airline pilots agree with you that 1500 is a bit excessive. Bean counters on the other hand, they absolutely would agree.
Just like you won't ever see Mainline pilots stand up for regional pilots... "I'm at mainline now, so what happens down there doesn't affect me..."
03-23-2017, 04:48 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
Originally Posted by Tpinks
Of course you won't, because they are in the system and it won't affect them.
Just like you won't ever see Mainline pilots stand up for regional pilots... "I'm at mainline now, so what happens down there doesn't affect me..."
Just like you won't ever see Mainline pilots stand up for regional pilots... "I'm at mainline now, so what happens down there doesn't affect me..."
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