Is use of the Hogan consistent with the ADA?
11-02-2018, 03:06 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by 742Dash
Having watched decades of major airline hiring practices and having had a family member go through the current med school application process (successfully, so this is not about being bitter) -- yea. At some point it should be a lottery.
You have a position that attracts thousands of applications. You work that down via reasonable screening criteria and interviews to a number that is still much higher than you are going to hire. What is left? The final process becomes petty and often results in classes made up of clones selected on the basis of the latest HR fad and those who have the best connections.
Design the hiring system using best practices. And if at the end of that there are excess applicants then yes, lottery. The end result would be much better.
You have a position that attracts thousands of applications. You work that down via reasonable screening criteria and interviews to a number that is still much higher than you are going to hire. What is left? The final process becomes petty and often results in classes made up of clones selected on the basis of the latest HR fad and those who have the best connections.
Design the hiring system using best practices. And if at the end of that there are excess applicants then yes, lottery. The end result would be much better.
11-02-2018, 07:14 AM
#62
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Originally Posted by 742Dash
Age or experience could be used to rank otherwise equal selection results. But HR would not like that, since it is best to hire young when faced with a long term labor shortage.
If they can hook them with a low-pay wholly owned, keep their pay low with a long upgrade, then a long wait for flow, by the time they get to the major and start anew (at zero seniority) they wil average less overall pay, and you can always replace them with one of the major FOs (with less seniority) and then replace him/her with someone new (with zero seniority) whose been making below regional leading pay at your regional for the last 8-9 years.
American has certainly figured this out. Slow the progression from regional first officer to major retiree as much as possible and you pay out the least in personnel costs over time.
Work out the case yourself. You'll see. The decreased time anyone will ever spend at the highest part of the major payscale far more than offsets the increased training costs. Because every new FO gets their Payscale reset to year one.
11-02-2018, 12:26 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
Or you could track how your hired pilots perform going through training and adjust your hiring practices based on that performance. Oh wait, several major airlines do that already!
Nevertheless it is an extremely optimistic, if not delusional, HR Department or VP of Ops who thinks that their hiring system can pick through 5,000 applicants and find the 478 best candidates for their 478 positions.
11-05-2018, 08:05 AM
#64
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Originally Posted by 742Dash
Which falls under the term "best practices".
Nevertheless it is an extremely optimistic, if not delusional, HR Department or VP of Ops who thinks that their hiring system can pick through 5,000 applicants and find the 478 best candidates for their 478 positions.
Nevertheless it is an extremely optimistic, if not delusional, HR Department or VP of Ops who thinks that their hiring system can pick through 5,000 applicants and find the 478 best candidates for their 478 positions.
11-25-2018, 10:37 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
There is another wholly unrelated issue with the Hogan. It is not necessarily a legal issue, but it could be a PR issue.
The stated goal of the company in giving the test is to insure that future hirees are compatible with previous hirees. A different way of phrasing this is that they want to have procedures that insure a lack of diversity in their Pilot employees. Given that the Hogan hasn't ever been cross-culturally validated, this sort of sounds like someone going to considerable effort to discriminate. In fact, it could easily be made to seem xenophobic by any enterprising young journalist who wanted to count coup on a big corporation.
The stated goal of the company in giving the test is to insure that future hirees are compatible with previous hirees. A different way of phrasing this is that they want to have procedures that insure a lack of diversity in their Pilot employees. Given that the Hogan hasn't ever been cross-culturally validated, this sort of sounds like someone going to considerable effort to discriminate. In fact, it could easily be made to seem xenophobic by any enterprising young journalist who wanted to count coup on a big corporation.
You are obviously upset that you didn’t pass the Hogan but based upon your postings and and thoughts I think the Hogan did exactly what it was supposed to do. Weeding you out was a good call.
Go try to get hired at DL, WN or AA. See how “illegal” their systems are. Not everyone gets a pony.
Good luck elsewhere.
11-25-2018, 10:46 AM
#66
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
I'm not worrying about it. I'm bringing it up as a matter of law and general interest. I have friends who are entirely competent pilots who believe, rightly or wrongly, that their careers have been adversely affected by the Hogan.
If United used the Hogan results and shared them with other employers then you would have a case. But they don’t. You just aren’t what the company is looking for. Move on.
11-25-2018, 11:20 AM
#67
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Originally Posted by PDRit
Careers aren’t ruined by the Hogan. Who do you blame if you pass the Hogan and fail the face to face interview? The interview team? I’m guessing you and your “friends” would never blame themselves because they are perfect. And thus that is why you and your “friends” were whacked via the Hogan.
If United used the Hogan results and shared them with other employers then you would have a case. But they don’t. You just aren’t what the company is looking for. Move on.
If United used the Hogan results and shared them with other employers then you would have a case. But they don’t. You just aren’t what the company is looking for. Move on.
It ain't personal. I've never taken the Hogan, but I am familiar how HR people are being affected by the ADA and rightly or wrongly, use of the Hogan might prove a legal risk under the ADA UNLESS A BUSINESS CASE CAN BE MADE.
It wouldn't be the first well intentioned but perhaps poorly written law that got twisted into something scarcely recognizable by the legal community. Title IX comes to mind.
For that matter, have you flown with your first miniature horse service animal yet? Most followers of Islam won't do seeing eye dogs it turns out.
11-25-2018, 01:35 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
If the company can make a legitimate business case - that is, demonstrate that those selected with the Hogan perform in some way better than those rejected by it, there is no problem whatsoever under the ADA. But so far nobody has been able to demonstrate that.
It ain't personal. I've never taken the Hogan, but I am familiar how HR people are being affected by the ADA and rightly or wrongly, use of the Hogan might prove a legal risk under the ADA UNLESS A BUSINESS CASE CAN BE MADE.
It wouldn't be the first well intentioned but perhaps poorly written law that got twisted into something scarcely recognizable by the legal community. Title IX comes to mind.
For that matter, have you flown with your first miniature horse service animal yet? Most followers of Islam won't do seeing eye dogs it turns out.
It ain't personal. I've never taken the Hogan, but I am familiar how HR people are being affected by the ADA and rightly or wrongly, use of the Hogan might prove a legal risk under the ADA UNLESS A BUSINESS CASE CAN BE MADE.
It wouldn't be the first well intentioned but perhaps poorly written law that got twisted into something scarcely recognizable by the legal community. Title IX comes to mind.
For that matter, have you flown with your first miniature horse service animal yet? Most followers of Islam won't do seeing eye dogs it turns out.
Sorry my friend but you are barking up the wrong tree. Go find another job/carrier. You just don’t fit in at UAL. Deal with it.
11-25-2018, 02:08 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by PDRit
Demonstrate to who? If you have a lawsuit then why don’t you put your legal claim to the test. I suspect you will lose that case but you are making claims that aren’t supported. Your ADA claims are ridiculous. Is United supposed to administer an oral test because someone isn’t smart enough to read and understand the question?
Sorry my friend but you are barking up the wrong tree. Go find another job/carrier. You just don’t fit in at UAL. Deal with it.
Sorry my friend but you are barking up the wrong tree. Go find another job/carrier. You just don’t fit in at UAL. Deal with it.
https://dredf.org/publications/mayerson.html
The prior definition of disability was then changed to ...or PERCEIVED to have a disability to make it so that employers would have to justify with a business case analysis their disqualifications.
I'm not sure why you have all the animus directed at me personally for simply raising the question, or what your basis is for deciding that I would or would not fit in to UAL. (Because I hold a different opinion than you on an esoteric legal point? That seems rather weak.)
And no, I have no basis for a lawsuit against UAL because if you actually read what I wrote above, I HAVE NEVER TAKEN THE HOGAN. As anyone with even a modicum of understanding of the law would realize, that means I personally woukd not have standing to sue.
But why are YOU so rabid about the Hogan? Is your 401k entirely invested in stock in the Hogan company? If so, that's extremely ill-advised. One adverse court ruling could wipe it out.
11-25-2018, 03:40 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
As you may or may not know, the ADA was specifically changed after Sutton vs UAL precisely because UAL WON that one, and pretty much at the suggestion of the Supreme a court justices that ruled against the Sutton sisters.
https://dredf.org/publications/mayerson.html
The prior definition of disability was then changed to ...or PERCEIVED to have a disability to make it so that employers would have to justify with a business case analysis their disqualifications.
I'm not sure why you have all the animus directed at me personally for simply raising the question, or what your basis is for deciding that I would or would not fit in to UAL. (Because I hold a different opinion than you on an esoteric legal point? That seems rather weak.)
And no, I have no basis for a lawsuit against UAL because if you actually read what I wrote above, I HAVE NEVER TAKEN THE HOGAN. As anyone with even a modicum of understanding of the law would realize, that means I personally woukd not have standing to sue.
But why are YOU so rabid about the Hogan? Is your 401k entirely invested in stock in the Hogan company? If so, that's extremely ill-advised. One adverse court ruling could wipe it out.
https://dredf.org/publications/mayerson.html
The prior definition of disability was then changed to ...or PERCEIVED to have a disability to make it so that employers would have to justify with a business case analysis their disqualifications.
I'm not sure why you have all the animus directed at me personally for simply raising the question, or what your basis is for deciding that I would or would not fit in to UAL. (Because I hold a different opinion than you on an esoteric legal point? That seems rather weak.)
And no, I have no basis for a lawsuit against UAL because if you actually read what I wrote above, I HAVE NEVER TAKEN THE HOGAN. As anyone with even a modicum of understanding of the law would realize, that means I personally woukd not have standing to sue.
But why are YOU so rabid about the Hogan? Is your 401k entirely invested in stock in the Hogan company? If so, that's extremely ill-advised. One adverse court ruling could wipe it out.
The SCOTUS make up has changed a bit since that ruling. What makes you think any ADA bias claim could be taken to the Supreme Court again?
What exactly is your complaint about the disability that would prevent you from being successful in the Hogan?
You claimed UAL was not hiring a varied group of pilots and the numbers don’t find that to be true. Our flight ops management make up disproves your theory.
Why is it so important to you if you haven’t taken the test and failed?
You ask why I care? Because I know based on your writings and opinions I would not want to sit next to you on a 4 day trip. Having extreme views in this profession is not good for CRM. You’ve shown you have issues and can’t let something go. Have to have the last word and are on a tangent that doesn’t correlate to normal or everyday thinking. Don’t think there is a hiring committee anywhere that embraces what your are selling.
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