Q for pilots that fly as Heavy Crew
02-18-2019, 06:44 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
I did five legs in a row without an FO. 3/5 we had three captains. The other two legs, we had four captains.
Where I fly, the senior capt, in consultation with everyone, decides who will sign for the aircraft and who will be in which seats for landing/takeoff, and who will fly. On my flights, the Capt signing for the aircraft has always sat in the left seat for TO/Landing.
All FOs r pic qualified, and all capts r right seat qualed.
Where I fly, the senior capt, in consultation with everyone, decides who will sign for the aircraft and who will be in which seats for landing/takeoff, and who will fly. On my flights, the Capt signing for the aircraft has always sat in the left seat for TO/Landing.
All FOs r pic qualified, and all capts r right seat qualed.
02-18-2019, 11:13 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 102
Heres how we do it in the C-17 world.
Everyone is left and right seat qualified from the start.
An augmented crew is required for duty operations over 16 hrs, max duty day is 24 hours (there are a couple caveats in minimum leg length too)
Augmented crew (pilot wise) consists of minimum 1 Aircraft Commander (captain) and 2 First Pilots (co-pilots)
Now you can staff the crew with 3 Aircraft Commanders if you want and you can have any combination of pilots in the seat for take off and landing regardless of who signed for the jet (A code in AF parlance)
A lesser experienced First Pilot or FP can only sit in the right seat for take off and landing if a Aircraft Commander or Mission Pilot (MP) occupies the left seat. If there is an Instructor Aircraft Commander or IP in the other seat, that inexperienced guy can take off and land from the left or right seat.
A more experienced FP can occupy the left or right seat regardless if there is an MP in the left or right seat.
An MP can occupy either seat for take off and landing.
Clear yet? We have a lot of flexibilty in who operates where, but the duty days can be long and only have 3 pilots, whereas a 121 airline would be required to staff the jet with 4 pilots.
Everyone is left and right seat qualified from the start.
An augmented crew is required for duty operations over 16 hrs, max duty day is 24 hours (there are a couple caveats in minimum leg length too)
Augmented crew (pilot wise) consists of minimum 1 Aircraft Commander (captain) and 2 First Pilots (co-pilots)
Now you can staff the crew with 3 Aircraft Commanders if you want and you can have any combination of pilots in the seat for take off and landing regardless of who signed for the jet (A code in AF parlance)
A lesser experienced First Pilot or FP can only sit in the right seat for take off and landing if a Aircraft Commander or Mission Pilot (MP) occupies the left seat. If there is an Instructor Aircraft Commander or IP in the other seat, that inexperienced guy can take off and land from the left or right seat.
A more experienced FP can occupy the left or right seat regardless if there is an MP in the left or right seat.
An MP can occupy either seat for take off and landing.
Clear yet? We have a lot of flexibilty in who operates where, but the duty days can be long and only have 3 pilots, whereas a 121 airline would be required to staff the jet with 4 pilots.
02-19-2019, 06:42 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: FTE
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by swingear
As the lone IRO on an augmented flight, yes you absolutely must be qualified to relieve both pilots. As one of two IRO's on a heavy crew flight (which is what he's talking about), I'd disagree. You only need to be able to relieve who you're going to relieve. It's just about making sure nobody is at the controls for more than 8. So just pick a seat and try not to touch any dusty switches.
If you actually read the FOTM, the right seat qual is satisfied just by flying seat support for another PIC in the sim. So it's entirely dependent on the sim pairing whether or not you actually have to land from the right seat. This individual was probably paired with an FO on his initial type course, as many folks here were, but since there are a lot more CA's than FO's right now, he probably wasn't for recurrent. Hence the program being different. It's kinda funny that everyone is getting all hyped up over a CA flying right seat, but nobody mentions that there is no specific left seat qual in our FOTM, yet you have FO IRO's flying left seat. Now, you take your type from the left seat, but it isn't part of the recurrent program. I must say, it is pretty tricky running the radios with my other hand. Thrills, chills, and narrow escapes, I tell ya.
As to why they don't deadhead a crew down and have them operate back, you might want to check part 121 Supplemental Flight and Duty rules and the CBA. They're vastly different for a Heavy Crew vs two separate two man crews. They tried that. Doesn't work. It provides no benefit (duty-wise) over a two-man crew.
If you actually read the FOTM, the right seat qual is satisfied just by flying seat support for another PIC in the sim. So it's entirely dependent on the sim pairing whether or not you actually have to land from the right seat. This individual was probably paired with an FO on his initial type course, as many folks here were, but since there are a lot more CA's than FO's right now, he probably wasn't for recurrent. Hence the program being different. It's kinda funny that everyone is getting all hyped up over a CA flying right seat, but nobody mentions that there is no specific left seat qual in our FOTM, yet you have FO IRO's flying left seat. Now, you take your type from the left seat, but it isn't part of the recurrent program. I must say, it is pretty tricky running the radios with my other hand. Thrills, chills, and narrow escapes, I tell ya.
As to why they don't deadhead a crew down and have them operate back, you might want to check part 121 Supplemental Flight and Duty rules and the CBA. They're vastly different for a Heavy Crew vs two separate two man crews. They tried that. Doesn't work. It provides no benefit (duty-wise) over a two-man crew.
Also, Boeing does not have a Type rating course for FOs, when you get your Type at Boeing its as a CA regardless of what you are at your Company. So for a year after initial, all FOs are left seat current and can fly as IRO. If they don't do left seat checkout in recurrent , they are not current to fly as IRO. This is nothing new, all the majors who have IRO biddable positions would send their IROs to sim every year for left seat checkout before the 1500 hr rule (back in the day FOs didn't get typed in initial)
It does not matter if it is not in your FOTM, it is in the FARs, you need to be qualified and current in the position you fly.
in supplemental ops
3 pilot crew is good for 12 aloft and 18 of duty,
4 pilot crew is good for 16 aloft and 20 duty
so there is an advantage to using a 4 pilot crew
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