Accelerated Professional Pilot Program
#11
Usually these time building deals have the pilot-not-flying log PIC as a safety pilot at the same time, and both pilots log PIC. This is a controversial system for logging time, although I do not wish to take sides on it. Another thing about this is the third pilot in the back, another controversial activity.
This doesn't sound like to much FUN for the guy in back, but what is the controversey? If there is a "mentor" in back and he is not signed for the aircraft or manipulating controls in any way - is s/he not just the adult supervision who has input on decisions made or points out factors?
An interesting aside here would be a flight of multiple aircraft. The flight lead might very well be fully trained and qualified for the position, but not the most experienced member of the flight (flight time, experience, or in this scenario - rank wise) There was a situation many years ago where a flight of 4 Harriers had some trouble. At least one aircraft ended up running out of fuel. The -3 member of the flight was NOT the flight lead, but was the senior ranking member of the flight. In the end he ended up being cited as a casual factor in the mishap because as the senior member of the lfiht he should have stepped in an taken control of the situation.
So....in GA - what *role* would this "mentor" in the backseat be taking?
USMCFLYR
#12
#13
Well the safety pilot logging PIC is an approved FAA method to have two pilots log time on a single-pilot airplane, but I know some airlines that do not accept such time toward their hiring minimums, and in my mind the spirit of the principle has to do with helping a left seat pilot practice doing approaches in VFR conditions for IFR currency or IFR flight training, neither of which really is the point of a twin-engine airplane doing long cross countries for time building purposes. I can only guess why some airlines don't count it, but I'll venture a guess they think it represents a lot of time watching the world go by as the right seat pilot does little as far as flying the airplane is concerned. Another reason may be that as you mention, the left side pilot is supposed to be wearing a view limiting device, but it is a skeptical thing to believe he or she is going to wear a hood for 7 hours at a time as specified.
As far as the back-seater goes, that is also legal as far as the FAA is concerned and he or she may log PIC as well, but his or her participation is obviously fairly limited. And one might argue from a learning perspective that they should not be there anyway, the pilots up front should thinking for themselves. If there is an emergency, then what can they do from the back seat except repeat the contents of the pilots operating handbook? As Ryan says, it has more to do with insurance than with learning. Once again, I do not take sides in it, just trying to point out some of the typical controversies.
As far as the back-seater goes, that is also legal as far as the FAA is concerned and he or she may log PIC as well, but his or her participation is obviously fairly limited. And one might argue from a learning perspective that they should not be there anyway, the pilots up front should thinking for themselves. If there is an emergency, then what can they do from the back seat except repeat the contents of the pilots operating handbook? As Ryan says, it has more to do with insurance than with learning. Once again, I do not take sides in it, just trying to point out some of the typical controversies.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 02-21-2010 at 10:21 AM.
#14
Insurance could certainly be one example I guess.
But then this MEI in the backseat can't be logging MEI time can he?
General question - if the guy flying (left seat) IS multi-rated, and the PNF is an MEI (right seat), does he get to log that time as instruction time just because he is an MEI - even if there is no true instruction going on?
USMCFLYR
#15
...General question - if the guy flying (left seat) IS multi-rated, and the PNF is an MEI (right seat), does he get to log that time as instruction time just because he is an MEI - even if there is no true instruction going on? ...
#16
I remember a thread on here from some time ago about **instructing** from the backseat. It seems fishy.
Yes but then again, a lot of this time in someone's logbook is a sure sign that some funny (albeit legally correct) logging is going on. Interviewers are not idiots, they know that it does not take 50 hours to give someone a BFR or a checkout, and it is a gray area. If I were an MEI baby-sitting a couple of guys doing their time-building from the back seat purely for insurance purposes, I doubt seriously that I would log any of the time at all.
You wouldn't log the stuff from the backseat but what would you log if you were sitting in my right seat (I'm ME rated and let's say that I'm current and everything - not a BFR or IPC required) and we are just flying from KSEE to KNLC for a hamburger Would you log MEI time?
USMCFLYR
#17
"I think they can. I'll have to check though."
He can log it as an MEI. It's shady, I agree, but it's legal for him to give instruction from the back seat and log it at PIC as instruction given.
He can log it as an MEI. It's shady, I agree, but it's legal for him to give instruction from the back seat and log it at PIC as instruction given.
#18
It's certainly legal to do so but there again, what is really going on is he or she is stretching the rules to log more time and the more intelligent interviewer will know how to spot that time. Only a few ratings require long cross countries with dual-instruction. If it's not one of those, then you are basically misusing the rules to log more dual-given when it is clear by reading between the lines that no dual-given is really going on. No law against it, just the ethical question. I know guys who log every minute they are in an airplane simply because they can. It is a blaring yellow flag in my mind at least they are not particularly honest. Rick or DE should have something to say about how the airlines regard it.
#19
It's certainly legal to do so but there again, what is really going on is he or she is stretching the rules to log more time and the more intelligent interviewer will know how to spot that time. Only a few ratings require long cross countries with dual-instruction. If it's not one of those, then you are basically misusing the rules to log more dual-given when it is clear by reading between the lines that no dual-given is really going on. No law against it, just the ethical question. I know guys who log every minute they are in an airplane simply because they can. It is a blaring yellow flag in my mind at least they are not particularly honest. Rick or DE should have something to say about how the airlines regard it.
DE - I guess back inthe day there was some instruction going on from the backseat of cerain jets that didn;'t have an extra set of controls - but AT LEAST that instructor had a way to get out of the airplane just in case
USMCFLYR
#20
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Flight Instructor
Posts: 10
I paid for some time from this program, here's a few things up front about it. The guy is a complete liar. They have 1 Seneca that is used for the majority of the flying. He also as an aztec and another twin that are in pieces. The maintenance on the airplane is shady. They guy that signs off their maintenance is located in Dallas and the plane was based out of Pompano Beach, FL. The IA on that airplane is a great guy and defiantly knew what he was doing, I just didn't know how much work he was doing on the airplane.
Make sure you have current charts (when I went on the trip the charts were a year old, luckily we were visual almost the entire time). The weight and balance hadn't been reconfigured with a seat out, that was the issue that was making me most nervous.
The actual flying experience was great. I purchased 50 hours and it took about 6 days (we were stuck in LA for a day). The flying was great. The guy I flew with and I are still in touch. you get to know each other when you spend 7 straight days together.
Let me know if you have any other questions
Make sure you have current charts (when I went on the trip the charts were a year old, luckily we were visual almost the entire time). The weight and balance hadn't been reconfigured with a seat out, that was the issue that was making me most nervous.
The actual flying experience was great. I purchased 50 hours and it took about 6 days (we were stuck in LA for a day). The flying was great. The guy I flew with and I are still in touch. you get to know each other when you spend 7 straight days together.
Let me know if you have any other questions
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