80 lbs over gross TOW
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Retired
Posts: 38
This is the story...
I was supposed to take a couple up for a one-hour sightseeing flight tonight. Guy was 230, me 250, and she was 140 - the couple is friends with the family that owns the FBO/Flight School/Charter company where I am a part-time instructor. The plane had 36 gallons of fuel on it. It is a 1999 172R with a 160HP engine. I ran a W&B and ended up 80 lbs over gross weight.
I found the chief pilot and he said it was too hard to drain fuel out of the plane (all the mechanics had gone home). The couple said they would come back next week. I didn't have any means to drain fuel from the plane so I relented. (The plane was supposed to have less fuel in but it didn't fly this morning because of VCTS and mechanical issues).
About 20 minutes after the couple left the FBO I got a call from the owner and he yelled at me for 20 minutes saying I made the FBO look bad. He said I needed to 'use common sense' when it came to aviation. He asked, "Do you ever drive 70 on the highway instead of 65?" He said sometimes you just need get the job done and that I was splitting hairs because '50 or so pounds hardly makes a difference' - but I can't help thinking that I didn't want the NTSB or FAA to reconstruct my fiery wreckage and cite 'pilot error' if the worst were to happen.
I understand that measuring fuel and such isn't 100% accurate but 80 lbs is well beyond the 'fudge factor'. I feel that since the owner and his ex-wife planned this demo flight that they should have made sure the line guys didn't 'tab' the fuel right before I was supposed to go flying. I pride myself on being a conservative and safe pilot - did I do anything wrong here?
I should add the Density Altitude was 3100' but the runway is about 8100'. There was a small convective cell 5 miles north and a line of TS about 60 miles west. To me it just didn't add up to a great day to push the envelope - not to mention it was Friday the 13th!
I found the chief pilot and he said it was too hard to drain fuel out of the plane (all the mechanics had gone home). The couple said they would come back next week. I didn't have any means to drain fuel from the plane so I relented. (The plane was supposed to have less fuel in but it didn't fly this morning because of VCTS and mechanical issues).
About 20 minutes after the couple left the FBO I got a call from the owner and he yelled at me for 20 minutes saying I made the FBO look bad. He said I needed to 'use common sense' when it came to aviation. He asked, "Do you ever drive 70 on the highway instead of 65?" He said sometimes you just need get the job done and that I was splitting hairs because '50 or so pounds hardly makes a difference' - but I can't help thinking that I didn't want the NTSB or FAA to reconstruct my fiery wreckage and cite 'pilot error' if the worst were to happen.
I understand that measuring fuel and such isn't 100% accurate but 80 lbs is well beyond the 'fudge factor'. I feel that since the owner and his ex-wife planned this demo flight that they should have made sure the line guys didn't 'tab' the fuel right before I was supposed to go flying. I pride myself on being a conservative and safe pilot - did I do anything wrong here?
I should add the Density Altitude was 3100' but the runway is about 8100'. There was a small convective cell 5 miles north and a line of TS about 60 miles west. To me it just didn't add up to a great day to push the envelope - not to mention it was Friday the 13th!
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: just a co-pilot
Posts: 194
There is more than one way to skin a cat and get the job done in this business, but busting limitations and FAR's just ain't one of them. The next time you get in trouble for making the right decision politely tell that person scolding you to eff off.
#15
80lbs is over the fudge factor? really on any given day airliners take off thousands of pounds overweight, when you think about it per the FAA the avg airline passenger weighs only 175lbs and their bags only weigh 30lbs each. I am sure your little cessna would have handled 80lbs pounds over just fine. I am with the boss on this one get the job done. rookie
I'm sure the airplane would have been fine.
But the OP was a little outside of his experience box, so he did the absolute right thing here...went by the book. If he had 10,000 hours in Alaska maybe he could have used his judgement.
What if the CG was only 1.5 inches aft of limits? It's not even two inches! But THAT will kill you.
Besides, if the guy got ramped the inspector would have eyeballed that load and asked to see the W&B for sure...that would have been a violation and a NASA form would not help if he had an overweight W&B and went anyway. I'll work within the width of a pencil lead, but I'm not putting tickets on the line for an employers convenience.
#16
I understand that measuring fuel and such isn't 100% accurate but 80 lbs is well beyond the 'fudge factor'. I feel that since the owner and his ex-wife planned this demo flight that they should have made sure the line guys didn't 'tab' the fuel right before I was supposed to go flying. I pride myself on being a conservative and safe pilot - did I do anything wrong here?
Ever flown a 172 at max gross on a hot day? It's not fun. 80 # over, or 1 # over, the limit is the limit. If the owner had such a hard on for getting the flight done he should've been more proactive. Flip side to that is take this learning experience on board and next time prepare.
That's over 13 gallons of fuel. You gonna go out and sit at the hold short at cruise power for over an hour?
#18
Welcome to the world of aviation...due to a set of circumstances beyond your control you get stuck making the tough call and getting a tongue lashing. GOOD ON YOU for doing the right thing by not taking off overweight. The only advice I can offer is to somehow find a way to say yes and remain within limits. I would have offered to do a few laps around the pattern (solo) in order to get the weight down. There is always a way, you just might have to be creative.
C9
C9
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 41
C9 is dead on. This is always the predicament the PIC is in. Just as a Designated Examiner is a representative of the FAA, your pilot certificate is a representation of how the FAA wants aircraft to be operated. Only problem is the government has never been able to make a profit!
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