Southern Fried

"Climb via" or "Descend via" is just another transfer of the workload from ATC to the pilots. It isn't too much of a problem for the Boeing and Airbus crowd with true vnav and autothrottles, but for those of us without those two items in the cockpit it reduces SA while you are trying to make sure you don't F up a crossing restriction during the climb or descent as the case may be.

Don't get me started on the individual Tracon idiosyncrasies when it comes to taking you off the profile to "make it work."

USMCFLYR

I'm sure they would love to have your input on the next big airspace redesign in Atlanta coming up

EasternATC

Two things:

1. You can always deny the SID or STAR. Seriously.

2. We don't like these RNAV procedures any better than you do when the situation dictates we have to take you off a route and then put you back on it. Our workload intensifies greatly at that point.

Southern Fried

It's been how many years since ATL and DFW came out with these RNAV procedures?

I'm sure there's a manager somewhere that needs to pad their annual evaluation for that next big promotion.

USMCFLYR

Exactly! It isn't simple. It takes a lot if time and effort. The airlines are a huge factor in this. The coordination required is immense. I only see it very near the end of the entire project and I'm left shaking my head at its' complexity.

Southern Fried

1. How long do you think it would be before my Chief and the FOs I fly with would have a word with me about that? Pilots do what their told as long as it's safe. The powers that be have decided these procedures are safe. We don't make policy, we just have to implement it when someone who is detached from real world operations decides to change things. What's good for a few doesn't mean it's good for all. Seriously.

2. Welcome to our world! When the geniuses who came up with these procedures had their meetings, what do you think they told the operators of all of those non-vnav / non-autothrottle aircraft? The phrase "suck it up" comes to mind. I would venture a guess and say that half of all of the operations per day are with these lesser equipped aircraft. Anytime a human is introduced into a computerized operation it is bound to cause problems for both sides of the operation. We are both just stupid meat sacks compared to a computer. Any distraction from either of us can lead to a deviation. If it leads to a mid-air, who do you think they will blame? The goal of increased operations per hour shouldn't come at the expense of a less safe operation. Seriously, some of the instructions I have received are just comical. I haven't pulled the "unable" card yet, but I know it's coming soon to a theater near you.

The problem isn't the procedure necessarily. If ALL of us were given the intended clearance and then left to fly it unmolested we wouldn't have nearly the issues we currently are experiencing. The problem for both sides is the previously mentioned "lesser equipped aircraft."

Remember, "stupid meat sacks."

Southern Fried

Agreed! Reference my reply with "stupid meat sacks" above.

RI830

PerfInit,

Spot on with posting this! I have almost been burned by this arrival cause of the G1000 logic.

KTEB's JAIKE3 is another that can get you into trouble. There is 8nm between ILENE and WACKI. You are crossing ILENE and 13,000 and then WACKI at 11,000 and 250kts. To add to the fun, you are turning to the right during this and usually increasing your tailwind component.

Another trick to these decend via's......plug the bottom altitude on the arrival into the Garmin or FMS. It should populate the expected altitudes in the fixes prior. As long as all of them match appropriately to the STAR restrictions.....you're mostly good for VNAV!

Another caution:
The Garmin will set a VNAV rate of decent required for you to cross the fix at the set altitude. The problem is that the autopilot will start to slow the decent and level off early and usually leaves you about 150-200ft high depending on the rate required. Use caution.

RI830

For those of you who get Professional Pilot, there is a questionnaire this month about the ATC/FAA becoming a non-for-profit/privatized system like Nav Canada.

Be sure to provide your input and true thoughts!

iceman49

So is the FAA a for profit system?