Another "Decend Via"????
08-20-2014, 10:52 AM
#1
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Posts: 115
Another "Decend Via"????
The other day I was assigned my first "Decend Via" clearance on a new Arrival into KOKC (Camet One). In the clearance I wasn't given an altitude to decend to but just "decend via the arrival".
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
08-20-2014, 12:30 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by zyttocs
The other day I was assigned my first "Decend Via" clearance on a new Arrival into KOKC (Camet One). In the clearance I wasn't given an altitude to decend to but just "decend via the arrival".
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
08-20-2014, 02:05 PM
#4
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Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by zyttocs
The other day I was assigned my first "Decend Via" clearance on a new Arrival into KOKC (Camet One). In the clearance I wasn't given an altitude to decend to but just "decend via the arrival".
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
I left two weeks ago and was expecting something different and STILL GOT a radial/DME to an intersecting radial off ADM for my clearance!
Still waiting
08-20-2014, 03:20 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by zyttocs
The other day I was assigned my first "Decend Via" clearance on a new Arrival into KOKC (Camet One). In the clearance I wasn't given an altitude to decend to but just "decend via the arrival".
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
My question:
The first three altitudes crossing restrictions allow for 4000 foot windows over the fixes. Is it really up to me to decide at what altitudes to level off at within the 4000' window and on the legs between the fixes? That just sounds wierd.
So basically when given that clearance I can decend whenever I want, to cross the fixes at any altitude I want, and fly at any altituded I want on the legs between the fixes as long as its withing the altitude window.
What am I missing here.
If you're actually leveling off between fixes, most likely you have done a poor job planning the descent. As someone said, VNAV makes this easy. Just some basic mental math if you don't have it.
08-20-2014, 03:45 PM
#6
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Position: JAFO- First Observer
Posts: 997
Use caution on these "Descend Via" RNAV STARS. Look ahead to the next subsequent fixes when you see a "range" or band of altitudes at a particular fix.
Case in point-
The EAGUL arrival into PHX - Cross HOMER below 16,000. The next fix is VNNOM, which is only 4nm away! Cross VNNOM between 10,000-11,000. If you plan to cross HOMER at 15,999 MSL, 250Kts, you definitely ain't gonna make the VNNOM altitude restriction...
Watch tailwinds too! Lots of crews have been "caught off guard" with that arrival.
Case in point-
The EAGUL arrival into PHX - Cross HOMER below 16,000. The next fix is VNNOM, which is only 4nm away! Cross VNNOM between 10,000-11,000. If you plan to cross HOMER at 15,999 MSL, 250Kts, you definitely ain't gonna make the VNNOM altitude restriction...
Watch tailwinds too! Lots of crews have been "caught off guard" with that arrival.
08-20-2014, 04:53 PM
#7
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Position: Airbus 320 Right Seat
Posts: 1,440
Another "Decend Via"????
What was described is correct , the idea is for a decent without a level off for better fuel consumption.
Descend via's make me think to much,., cause now I have to make sure George is doing what he is supposed to be doing ... Which he doesn't always go.. ... Open descent and call it a day...
And yes the tail winds can truly get you....
Descend via's make me think to much,., cause now I have to make sure George is doing what he is supposed to be doing ... Which he doesn't always go.. ... Open descent and call it a day...
And yes the tail winds can truly get you....
08-21-2014, 10:26 AM
#9
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as worked up as we get over "descend via" clearances, it's the "climb via"
clearances that really have the potential to bite guys/gals in the butt.
Las Vegas, for example, has you climb to FL 190 but a ton of "cross at" intermediate level off fixes on the way up.
clearances that really have the potential to bite guys/gals in the butt.
Las Vegas, for example, has you climb to FL 190 but a ton of "cross at" intermediate level off fixes on the way up.
08-21-2014, 06:27 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by klondike
as worked up as we get over "descend via" clearances, it's the "climb via"
clearances that really have the potential to bite guys/gals in the butt.
Las Vegas, for example, has you climb to FL 190 but a ton of "cross at" intermediate level off fixes on the way up.
clearances that really have the potential to bite guys/gals in the butt.
Las Vegas, for example, has you climb to FL 190 but a ton of "cross at" intermediate level off fixes on the way up.
I don't understand this attitude. It's a SID with altitude constraints. We've had those for ages. Prior to ATC using "climb via" you never flew a SID that had intermediate altitude constraints in the climb? Why are those constraints suddenly a bigger threat than they were before?
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