I am voluntarily furloughed. I got furlough pay. If I get retro pay, that would mean i get to "double-dip".
In fact, I haven't worked for UAL for 4 years, so my retro-pay is, and should be, NADA. Zero.
However I do believe if 100% retro pay is not part of the equation, that we have just rewarded, through negotiation, management's delaying tactics. We will never have an on-time contract again.
As far as the argument for higher pay rates instead of retro, I would rather take my money up front, and put it in my own account, rather than let management keep it and promise to pay me in the future.
IMHO
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Not sure where you're going with that. "Retro is Retro"?????? To me that means if you were not here at the contract amendable date, and not here since the amendable date, then you didn't earn retro. Retro = Pay raise X hours worked since amendable date. So, if you ain't on property, you didn't earn Retro. That clear enough?? All of our furloughees were gone before Jan 2010 and none are back yet. RETRO is RETRO
"Rich and taxes"?? wth? put down the bottle and sleep it off.
Sled
I was trying to say that external factors, like how much one makes while on furlough elsewhere is irrevelant to a retro calculation. And yes, If you werre not on the property at any time after the expiration of our last contract then it makes sense that one is not entitled to retro. My comment about the rich not paying their fair share was my way of say that if you want to talk about irrevelant situations, I'll be happy to start with that.
Personally where the furloughed are currently working and they earning, off the property, has no bearing on retro. Retro is Retro. Now, do you want to get into the "rich aren't paying their fare share of taxes"...bring it on
Retro is Retro. If a pilot were furloughed he had no pay so would have no retro pay. If the union wants to give some cash to furloughed pilots and can negotiate that then good for them. As far as retro pay however you can't have retro pay on a baseline of no pay. Its impossible. Retro to what?
Back in late 89 we negotiated a contract that dumped the "B" scale (I was 3 years into my "B" at UAL) I won't inflame the discussion by pointing out how much I made as a fo 727 back then but is was roughly 1/3 of my A-Scale counterpart. We negotiated a new contract and Wolf Thru us $54mil. ALPA took $4mil off the top to subsidize Retiree medical that had just increased. Leaving approximately $50mil which was roughly 50% retro. Now you might think that we each got .50 on the dollar for our retro but ALPA looked at the distribution bell curve and saw that the "B" Scale pilots we going to collect a "disproportinate amount" of the retro - whatever the heck that meant at the time. Alpa decided to distribute the money on a "point basis" and you got points for things like how long you worked at UAL - Seniority (I think you could get a maximum of 6 or 7 points max for seniority. And points for things like how long you worked under the retro active period. This system essentially SCREWED all the "B" scaler's and rewarded seniority. BUT also rewarded FLEET QUAL Scabs because they were paid $50/75K (F/O or CAP). It was a shameful act and one I will never forget. I will fight to prevent this from happening again!
Make no mistake about it, the CAL scabs in particular have seen the biggest windfall of any demographic in this industry already. The seniority they stole decades ago, affects everyone junior to them every bid month. The age 65 rule change benefitted them the most, more than any other identifiable group of people. Fight as you may, their "share" of any retro or signing bonus will be at least equal to anyone else's, because to do otherwise would harm the the innocent in similar seniority strata. At least in your example, the money didn't go to the Fleet Quallers disproportianately. I am afraid that to join in your argument via your logic would be folly for hundreds of former New York Air and Pan Am pilots to name a few.
Make no mistake about it, the CAL scabs in particular have seen the biggest windfall of any demographic in this industry already. The seniority they stole decades ago, affects everyone junior to them every bid month. The age 65 rule change benefitted them the most, more than any other identifiable group of people. Fight as you may, their "share" of any retro or signing bonus will be at least equal to anyone else's, because to do otherwise would harm the the innocent in similar seniority strata. At least in your example, the money didn't go to the Fleet Quallers disproportianately. I am afraid that to join in your argument via your logic would be folly for hundreds of former New York Air and Pan Am pilots to name a few.
The mistake is that there will never be any type of accountability for the scabs. Most will retire either at 65 or at JCBA signing and take their ill-gotten gains, never having sacrificed one iota and walking away knowing in "their" minds what they did was right.
Make no mistake about it, the CAL scabs in particular have seen the biggest windfall of any demographic in this industry already. The seniority they stole decades ago, affects everyone junior to them every bid month. The age 65 rule change benefitted them the most, more than any other identifiable group of people. Fight as you may, their "share" of any retro or signing bonus will be at least equal to anyone else's, because to do otherwise would harm the the innocent in similar seniority strata. At least in your example, the money didn't go to the Fleet Quallers disproportianately. I am afraid that to join in your argument via your logic would be folly for hundreds of former New York Air and Pan Am pilots to name a few.
Please don't put New York Air in the same sentence with Pan Am. While New York Air pilots did not cross a picket line per se. New York Air was non-union and did fly repainted TXI DC 9s in direct competition with Eastern. read Flying the Line Vol. II pp121-122
As a 25 year+ ALPA member,former LEC member I'd be happy to meet you in a dark ally any time.
Your reaction defines what's wrong with ALPA, it's become a Cult
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