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LOA 25 Paragraph 4

Old 11-30-2012, 04:54 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive View Post


I believe you heard them wrong.
Let's say a 2001UAL hire gets furloughed, comes back, gets furloughed again, and now at CAL. S/He has a total of 12 years "at" UAL, but only 5 years flying for UAL.
This TA would give that pilot 5 years pay for now.
After the ISL is complete, let's say said UAL pilot is stapled to the bottom under all the active CAL pilots. That means a 2008 CAL is higher in seniority on the list. That CAL 2008 hire will have 5/6 years at CAL. And the UAL will be "brought up" to the CAL pilot. So the UAL pilot will have NO PAY longevity for the 12 years/he put in.
A 2001 UAL hire will get the same pay rate as me being a 2008 UAL hire and a CAL 2008 hire...
<sigh> This is incorrect, and there are numerous FAQs and MEC updates posted on this thread to disprove it. After SLI you get your UAL + CAL active service as a minimum. THEN "additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough"......I say again...."additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough" as long as that does'nt give you an earlier longevity date than the next most senior CAL guy. The next most senior CAL guy does not affect your ACTIVE SERVICE credit, just your FURLOUGH credit. The "additional pay longevity" can be 0, but it can't be negative. Sorry, not trying to be an ass, just a little frustrated.

Sled

Last edited by jsled; 11-30-2012 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:08 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by 47dog View Post
Hey jsled.
Many of us are already getting more than five years pay, so YES, we will loose longevity for the time period between DOS and SLI.
Agreed. And that ****es me off too. BUT, you took a job at CAL for the greater of your furloughed pay rate or their longevity pay rate. This contract gives you 5th year pay at DOS, which is greater than your actual longevity at CAL and roughly $115 per hour (still pay protected to your UAL furloughed rate if greater). That is about a $30 per hour raise from 7th year UAL pay, right? Then after SLI/OMD you go to 9th year (UAL+CAL) that's $125 as a minimum and possibly more depending on the post SLI furlough credit adjustment. Vote no if you want, just make sure you consider the business side as well as the emotional side. Put some bread on the table while you fight the longevity issue.

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Last edited by jsled; 11-30-2012 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:55 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
<sigh> This is incorrect, and there are numerous FAQs and MEC updates posted on this thread to disprove it. After SLI you get your UAL + CAL active service as a minimum. THEN "additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough"......I say again...."additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough" as long as that does'nt give you an earlier longevity date than the next most senior CAL guy. The next most senior CAL guy does not affect your ACTIVE SERVICE credit, just your FURLOUGH credit. The "additional pay longevity" can be 0, but it can't be negative. Sorry, not trying to be an ass, just a little frustrated.

Sled
You said what I said. Additional PAY longevity can be 0. '99-01 hires at UAL do not get FULL pay longevity right now(i.e. 12 years), while those hired in '08 (at UAL and CAL) will get FULL PAY LONGEVITY (5 years).
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:13 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive View Post
You said what I said. Additional PAY longevity can be 0. '99-01 hires at UAL do not get FULL pay longevity right now(i.e. 12 years), while those hired in '08 (at UAL and CAL) will get FULL PAY LONGEVITY (5 years).
You are correct in that you will get 4.7 years longevity...5th year pay at DOS, just like the 2001 hire. BUT, after SLI the 2001 hire will be paid at his active years service at UAL + CAL (5 years at United + X years at CAL) as a minimum. That's all I'm saying. Change the 2001 hire in your example to a 1999 hire with 7 years at UAL and 1+ with CAL and he gets 10th year pay after sli to your 6th year pay (after 5/6/13) even with 0 additional pay longevity for time spent on furlough.

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Last edited by jsled; 11-30-2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:24 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by mossimo View Post
DirectLawOnly,

Please provide the reference that 3-b-3 applies only to future furloughees. Every reference I find show that it applies to all EXCEPT the sUAL carveout.
The DOS is in the future therefore no reference is necessary.

A contract can not apply to things that have happened in the past unless the parties specifically agree to it.

This example is a bit of a stretch but I think it will make the point. When you buy a house half way through the tax year, you specifically agree that the seller will be responsible for half of the taxes retroactively. Otherwise when you got to tax day, as the current owner you'd be responsible for the entire amount.

A better question is "how can people read section 3 and apply is selectively to just the CAL pilots and not to UAL pilots?" THERE IS NO CARVE OUT!!

LOA 25 makes NO DISTINCTION between CAL furloughs, UAL furloughs, or twice furloughed UAL pilots. It's sole purpose is to create a mechanism for UAL furloughs to receive FULL LONGEVITY CREDIT FOR ALL TIME ON FURLOUGH subject only to an adverse ruling by an arbitrator. THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN SCREW YOU ON LONGEVITY IS THE ARBITRATOR.

I don't know how much plainer I can say it.

I think the UAL furloughed pilots are being deceived, and I don't want to see them hang their collective hat on something that isn't there. I am a UAL guy myself. I've never been furloughed so I don't have a stake in this fight. I'm sorry you find yourselves in this position. I want to see everyone of you guys made whole. I think this TA with LOA 25 makes that possible.

Be informed. Vote your interests.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:28 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
You are correct in that you will get 4.7 years longevity...5th year pay at DOS, just like the 2001 hire. BUT, after SLI the 2001 hire will be paid at his active years service at UAL + CAL (5 years at United + X years at CAL) as a minimum. That's all I'm saying. Change the 2001 hire in your example to a 1999 hire with 7 years at UAL and 1+ with CAL and he gets 10th year pay after sli to your 5th year pay even with 0 additional pay longevity for time spent on furlough.

Sled
So we DO agree!

That's the rub for some of the furloughed pilots that were hired 99-2001. They MAY not get their FULL 12 year pay rate (depending on ISL), while us newer hires at UAL/CAL (2008/2012) will get ALL (I lose one day actually) furlough time for pay (NOT depending on ISL).

Just doesn't seem right.

Now, on to scope aguments... (jk! )
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:34 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by DirectLawOnly View Post

Be informed. Vote your interests.
Read that last line, people...
That says it all.

Not about Voting for what is right, not about Voting to fix the Industry, Not about Voting to help out the guys coming behind you, Not about Voting to fix the guys below you.

Vote YOUR interests.


Motch
VoteD NO~
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:37 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by DirectLawOnly View Post
The DOS is in the future therefore no reference is necessary.

A contract can not apply to things that have happened in the past unless the parties specifically agree to it.

This example is a bit of a stretch but I think it will make the point. When you buy a house half way through the tax year, you specifically agree that the seller will be responsible for half of the taxes retroactively. Otherwise when you got to tax day, as the current owner you'd be responsible for the entire amount.

A better question is "how can people read section 3 and apply is selectively to just the CAL pilots and not to UAL pilots?" THERE IS NO CARVE OUT!!

LOA 25 makes NO DISTINCTION between CAL furloughs, UAL furloughs, or twice furloughed UAL pilots. It's sole purpose is to create a mechanism for UAL furloughs to receive FULL LONGEVITY CREDIT FOR ALL TIME ON FURLOUGH subject only to an adverse ruling by an arbitrator. THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN SCREW YOU ON LONGEVITY IS THE ARBITRATOR.

I don't know how much plainer I can say it.

I think the UAL furloughed pilots are being deceived, and I don't want to see them hang their collective hat on something that isn't there. I am a UAL guy myself. I've never been furloughed so I don't have a stake in this fight. I'm sorry you find yourselves in this position. I want to see everyone of you guys made whole. I think this TA with LOA 25 makes that possible.

Be informed. Vote your interests.
Your argument is persuasive, but on the JNC compensation video, Phil Otis, co-chairman of the JNC, tells us that all CAL pilots will be given full longevity for time spent on furlough and all UAL pilots will be given longevity for time spent on furlough in accordance with LOA 25. I don't think that is in dispute.
The disparity between the furlough credit needed to make the average UAL furloughee whole vs the credit to make the average CAL furloughee whole is considerable. Obviously, the UAL MEC was unable to get the company AND the CAL ALPA to sign off on that disparity. So here we are.

Sled

Last edited by jsled; 11-30-2012 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:47 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by horrido27 View Post
Read that last line, people...
That says it all.

Not about Voting for what is right, not about Voting to fix the Industry, Not about Voting to help out the guys coming behind you, Not about Voting to fix the guys below you.

Vote YOUR interests.


Motch
VoteD NO~

That last line means that each person is entitled to their own vote based on their own assessment of the choices before them.

What you insinuating is that if some of these guys fall on their sword to vote YOUR interests then they will somehow be made out to be heroes and martyrs. Isn't that how religious fanatics get people to walk into crowded markets and blow themselves up?
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:53 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive View Post
So we DO agree!

That's the rub for some of the furloughed pilots that were hired 99-2001. They MAY not get their FULL 12 year pay rate (depending on ISL), while us newer hires at UAL/CAL (2008/2012) will get ALL (I lose one day actually) furlough time for pay (NOT depending on ISL).

Just doesn't seem right.

Now, on to scope aguments... (jk! )
YEs we do agree. However, you started your post to uafurlough saying "I think you heard him wrong" which led me to believe you didn't understand that after SLI, active servce (UAL + CAL)CANNOT be reduced. There is nothing "wrong" in uafurloughs post.
The furlough credit for pay that we DID get is more than ever before at United Airlines. It may not seem fair for the 2172, but it is what we got after 2.5 years of negotiation. Go to the IAH crewroom and ask the CAL LEC reps why full furlough credit was not given to all UAL pilots. I have. Listen to their answer. It is not hard to figure out why we didn't end up with full credit for the 2172. Another 2 years of negotiation will not fix it.

Sled
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