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LOA 25 Paragraph 4

Old 11-28-2012, 05:29 PM
  #51  
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So sled, let me make this very obvious. Your interpretation is essentially correct. However, what you can't seem to grasp is that "next senior CAL pilot" will have received his/her ENTIRE furlough longevity credited. The junior L-UAL will have his/hers truncated to fit the paradigm. i.e. unequal representation and overt discrimination. Questions?
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:03 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Freddriver5 View Post
So sled, let me make this very obvious. Your interpretation is essentially correct. However, what you can't seem to grasp is that "next senior CAL pilot" will have received his/her ENTIRE furlough longevity credited. The junior L-UAL will have his/hers truncated to fit the paradigm. i.e. unequal representation and overt discrimination. Questions?
I absolutely DO grasp the fact that CAL furloughees are getting full credit for time spent on furlough. It's a screw job, plain and simple. That doesn't mean a UAL furloughee's active service is going to be decreased which is what is being claimed here.

I also grasp why we have pay banding and why CAL got a profit sharing side deal. I grasp the Retro Pay disagreement and settlement. What I do not grasp is why anybody at UAL would want to go back to the table with these guys. I am not voting no because of this LOA. It will not change. Good luck on the lawsuit.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:30 AM
  #53  
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<<It's a screw job, plain and simple.>>

And there you have it. I understand this not being a make or break 'no' vote for the thousands it does not directly impact, but this rawest of raw deals that defies logic and is such an obvious setup for the follow on staple job headed our way should make you ask, "If these guys are taking it prison style, what's being done to me?"

There is very soft language in this TA that should cause you to reflect, "How could this wobbly language be used to my detriment?"

To borrow from Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the double furloughees.
and I did not speak out
because I was not a double furloughee.

Then they came for the narrow body aircraft
and I did not speak out
because I was not a narrow body pilot.

Then they came for the reserve and DH work rules
and I did not speak out
because I did not bid reserve and rarely DH.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:46 AM
  #54  
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Please post the exact language from LOA 25 (or other part of TA) that specifically carves out s-UAL pilots.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:12 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Coto Pilot View Post
I still don't think you get it. I will not go to seven or eight year pay upon signing. I will go to five year pay even though a CAL guy hired on the same day will go to 12 year pay. Five year pay under the new contract is higher than seven year pay under the United contract so I will get an increase, it just won't be that same as everybody else at the company. I am currently paid at seven years longevity, I will drop down to five years to keep me below the most junior CAL pilot who was hired eight years after me.
Explain how a CAL guy hired on the same date as you gets elevated to 12 years of longevity at DOS. Section 3 of the TA applies to future furlough pilots only. Is there something I'm missing?
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:22 AM
  #56  
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Q. It is unconscionable that this negotiating committee has not provided full longevity in this contract for our furloughed pilots. Why did you throw them under the bus?



A. The JNC tried to achieve full pay longevity credit for time on furlough for our current furloughees but we were unable to achieve 100% of that goal in the TA. The fact that we achieved the longevity credit we did for furloughed pilots is noteworthy because since the first United pilot contract in 1940 until today we have negotiated 24 pilot contracts and not one of those past contracts has provided any longevity credit for pay for time spent on furlough for our pilots. For the first time in our history, section 3-B-3 provides for full longevity for pay purposes for future pilots who are placed on furlough.

LOA 25 paragraph 4 provides for our furloughed pilots who are working at CAL to receive an immediate bump in longevity for pay for their time on furlough up to a maximum of 4 years 7 months, which is the same longevity for the most junior CAL pilot who was previously on furlough. As an example, this first longevity increase would result in some of our furloughees going from approximately $60K per year to over $120K per year in pay at date of signing. Additionally, after the completion of the integrated seniority list is submitted to the company, the furloughed pilots would receive an additional upward adjustment in pay longevity to the same pay longevity as the CAL pilot just senior to them on the combined seniority list.

Last edited by jsled; 11-29-2012 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:33 AM
  #57  
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3-B-3 A Pilot shall continue to accrue longevity when on furlough.


4. Pay Longevity Credit for Furloughees

Upon date of signing, any pilot who is, or previously was, furloughed and whose accrued pay longevity is less than that of pilots hired on or before 5/6/08 shall receive additional pay longevity credit for time spent on furlough, but only to the extent that such credit does not provide a pay longevity date prior to 5/7/08. When an Integrated Seniority List is presented to the Company that satisfies the terms of Section 5 of the Transition and Process Agreement (“TPA”), pilots who are or previously were furloughed shall receive additional pay longevity credit for all time spent on furlough provided that they have additional time on furlough which was not credited for pay longevity purposes upon date of signing, and provided further that the application of such additional credit does not result in any s-United pilot having a pay longevity date that is earlier than the pay longevity date of the next most senior s-Continental pilot. For purposes of the application of the calculations required by the preceding sentence only, a hypothetical unadjusted pay longevity date for s-Continental pilots shall be used. The hypothetical unadjusted pay longevity date will be established by removing pay longevity reductions resulting from time to spent on leaves of absence.

Last edited by jsled; 11-29-2012 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:01 AM
  #58  
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LOA 25 paragraph 4 has led to much consternation, confusion and misinformation. The effect of the Tentative Agreement on our currently furloughed pilots can be described best by considering a number of scenarios:



Scenario 1: Furloughed pilot. Two years of UAL longevity and never recalled.



This pilot will benefit from the new agreement by having his/her longevity adjusted to 4 years 7 months on the Date of Signing (DOS). If this pilot elects to accept a pilot position at CAL, he will be paid at the 5th year rate at DOS. This longevity for pay may be further increased after the SLI process is completed – but cannot be decreased below 4.7 years (plus any time which passes between DOS and his recall date).



Scenario 2: Twice-furloughed pilot. Three years of UAL longevity and another two years of UAL longevity.



This pilot already has five years of pilot longevity, which exceeds the 4 year 7 month limit to adjustments on Date of Signing. He will not lose this and can only gain longevity credit for pay depending on his placement after the SLI is completed. At that time, this pilot will receive longevity for pay which is equal to the L-CAL pilot who is the next most senior pilot to him on the seniority list (UNLESS that would be a lower number than his current longevity). There is no way for this pilot to lose any longevity for pay purposes. After ISL this pilot’s full earned longevity (CAL “new hire” and UAL) will apply.



Scenario 3: Twice-furloughed pilot now working at CAL. Three years UAL, then another two years UAL, and 1.5 years at CAL.



At Date of Signing, the pilot will be adjusted to 4 years 7 months of longevity for pay purposes at CAL. This longevity will be improved after SLI by combining his UAL and CAL longevity. Additionally, for pay it may be improved by the SLI process as described in Scenario 2 above. This UAL furloughee working at CAL is considered a “CAL pilot” but is pay protected at his UAL pay rate. That pilot will see a potential increase in pay longevity to 5th year TA rates if the new rate is higher than the previous protected rate. After the completion of the ISL a second adjustment of his pay longevity will be computed to account for his time on furlough. This added pay longevity will be capped so as to not exceed the longevity of the CAL pilot just senior to him on the ISL. This pilot will NOT lose any longevity and can only improve upon his 6.5 years of longevity for pay. After ISL this pilot’s full earned longevity (CAL plus UAL) will apply.



Scenario 4: Voluntary furloughed pilot now working at CAL. Eight years at UAL and two years at CAL.



This pilot has 10 years of cumulative pilot longevity, which exceeds the 4 year 7 month limit to adjustments on Date of Signing. He may have his longevity increased by virtue of the SLI process, but he cannot lose any of his 10 years of his pilot longevity. If he is surrounded by CAL pilots on the new ISL with lesser longevity, he still retains his pilot longevity of 10 years. After ISL this pilot’s full earned longevity (CAL plus UAL) will apply.



To Summarize:

1. An L-UAL pilot may only GAIN longevity for pay from the TA-mandated process. He will never lose pilot longevity which he has already attained through work for L-UAL and/or L-CAL.


2. Any L-UAL pilots who were furloughed with less than 4 years 7 months of longevity will be adjusted to up to 4 years 7 months of longevity for pay on the Date of Signing.



3. A pilot who has worked at both L-UAL and L-CAL will use the cumulative total of longevity at both airlines as his MINIMUM longevity after the TA is signed and the ISL completed.

Last edited by jsled; 11-29-2012 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:03 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
3-B-3 A Pilot shall continue to accrue longevity when on furlough.

This applies ONLY to all future furloughees under the JCBA, if ratified. It has no bearing on current or past furloughees. In a complex legal document, context matters. Pulling one sentence or paragraph out without considering how it relates to others is a recipe for gross misinterpretation.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:06 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by DirectLawOnly View Post
This applies ONLY to all future furloughees under the JCBA, if ratified. It has no bearing on current or past furloughees.
I'm with you. I am just posting all the relevant stuff so we can have an informed discussion. There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I am as guilty as the next guy.

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