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Old 11-29-2012, 09:52 AM   #71 (permalink)
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The Delta contract has longevity and the company offereed CAL Delta +$1. They negotiated it away in the hopes of making a gain in the SLI. The twice furloughed United pilots are not getting longevity for time spent on furlough. We are not even getting credit for our "years of active service". They are treating us as CAL pilots in perptuity, even after the SLI and not giving us credit for the time we actively flew at United, much less for the time we flew at United + CAL and certainly not for our time on furlough. Our MEC has sold us out with the no furlough language, the bond distribution, the inclusion of this letter etc, do you think they are going to fight til the death for us now?

At the time Delta + $1 was offered there was no credit for furlough in the Delta contract except for a formula giving some NWA pilots, some partial credit, subject to conditions. It does appear in their new contract, same as our TA.

"Even after SLI......" You can't possible make this assertion unless you have in your possession the ISL in its final form. An example: if you have 15 years of longevity in all its forms (active UAL, furlough, etc.) and the next senior CAL pilot on the ISL has 16 years, you will get credit for your full 15. That is plainly clear from LOA 25.

As for a CAL pilot with less longevity being placed above you on the ISL, that is largely beyond the control of the parties to the JCBA. How can the CAL MEC, UAL MEC, or UCH management bind the arbitrator to a decision that is favorable to you? The answer is only a consensual agreement between the two MEC's on an ISL that gives you full credit for all longevity and places you above any CAL pilot with less longevity. In essence, straight date of hire. Believe me, I'm not opposed to that, but barring that you are at the mercy of the arbitrator's ruling.

Explain to me how you think a NO vote helps you achieve your goal of getting maximum credit for your accrued service and furlough time
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:53 AM   #72 (permalink)
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The Delta contract has longevity and the company offereed CAL Delta +$1. They negotiated it away in the hopes of making a gain in the SLI. The twice furloughed United pilots are not getting longevity for time spent on furlough. We are not even getting credit for our "years of active service". They are treating us as CAL pilots in perptuity, even after the SLI and not giving us credit for the time we actively flew at United, much less for the time we flew at United + CAL and certainly not for our time on furlough. Our MEC has sold us out with the no furlough language, the bond distribution, the inclusion of this letter etc, do you think they are going to fight til the death for us now?
Yes you do get credit for active time at ual not cal. Cal job was a jet for jobs and you get the higher of pay if 4 years pay at ual you left that's what you get at cal.

Loa 25 would than give you 4.7 or 5 years pay once or if the ta passes ual and cal are two separate company's they will become one with a ta. Oh and the TPA not having a expiration date I would not count on that smisedick will find away around that just like the 70 seat acft. And dismantle the ual side.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:56 AM   #73 (permalink)
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I think that is incorrect. After SLI there will be full years of service credit as a minimum according to the LOA 25 discussion sheet. I do agree that no furlough credit SUCKS, but I am just pointing out that neither pilot group is getting it - and that is a new revelation. I have read over and over on the boards that CAL pilots are getting it and we were not
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:07 AM   #74 (permalink)
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The latest Delta contract that just passed in the last few months, has furlough time credit. Prior to that there was no credit for furlough just like our current book. I haven't read SWA or FEDEX, but we don't work for them either so..............

NWA pilots did get some partial credit for some of the time on furlough subject to conditions, as part of the merger. s-UAL pilots have the potential to get FULL CREDIT SUBJECT ONLY TO AN ADVERSE RULING BY AN ARBITRATOR.

I assume that because you don't have any logical arguments to present you resorted to attempting to discredit me by name calling? For the record, I never claimed guru status.

Be informed. Voted your interests.
Yeah, my argument is your comment that no current contract has in the industry has this longevity...I am saying you are wrong period.
I wasn't the one coming across in a pilot forum as a legal professional...suggest u thicken ur skin.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:25 AM   #75 (permalink)
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At this time we aren't even getting credit for hard years spent on the property. This hose job I would imagine is unprecedented. To simplify this, look at a United furloughee that was hired in 2000 and at 8 year pay and has not accepted a job at CAL because he is waiting for the merger to be complete. After the SLI is done, he decides to come back to the merged company, he never accepted the job at CAL under the TPA and is returning to "United Airlines". His pay longevity is then going to be his original date of hire less his years of furlough, lets say 8 years on the property and 5 on furlough. This would presumably give him a 2005 longevity date , far senior to his new hire classmates that came back to CAL and are being oppressed by the 2008 hire date of the CAL pilot ahead of him because of a staple in the SLI.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:26 AM   #76 (permalink)
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"The latest Delta contract that just passed in the last few months, has furlough time credit. Prior to that there was no credit for furlough just like our current book"

That is not correct. A friend of mine, furloughed from Delta after 9/11, went back to DAL at 8th year pay back in 2007. Quite a big difference from my return to UAL at 2nd year pay, as we were hired at nearly the same time at our respective airlines.
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Last edited by mossimo; 11-29-2012 at 10:57 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:43 AM   #77 (permalink)
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At this time we aren't even getting credit for hard years spent on the property. This hose job I would imagine is unprecedented. To simplify this, look at a United furloughee that was hired in 2000 and at 8 year pay and has not accepted a job at CAL because he is waiting for the merger to be complete. After the SLI is done, he decides to come back to the merged company, he never accepted the job at CAL under the TPA and is returning to "United Airlines". His pay longevity is then going to be his original date of hire less his years of furlough, lets say 8 years on the property and 5 on furlough. This would presumably give him a 2005 longevity date , far senior to his new hire classmates that came back to CAL and are being oppressed by the 2008 hire date of the CAL pilot ahead of him because of a staple in the SLI.
No one that is a party to this JCBA can prevent you from being stapled to the bottom of the list by the arbitrator. That is a completely separate process. (They can reach an agreement prior to arbitration that prevents that) What can improve the standing of the pilot in your example with the arbitrator is having not just 8 years of longevity but 13 which the pilot would get in the event the TA is ratified. (8 actual + the furlough credit of ~5 on DOS) More credit to go would be even better, imo.

LOA 25 has to do with credit for furlough. It says nothing, and neither does anything else, to limit your longevity already accrued in actual service. Remember that on DOS s-UA and s-CAL are still two separate companies. The merger is not finished until the ISL. CAL won't give you credit for your UA time if you were working for CAL but after ISL there won't be a CAL and the ISL through the arbitrator's decision will rule. You might get hosed, you might not. My crystal ball is MEL'd. But I think your argument is stronger if the TA passes vs. not passing.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:49 AM   #78 (permalink)
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"The latest Delta contract that just passed in the last few months, has furlough time credit. Prior to that there was no credit for furlough just like our current book"

That is not correct. A friend of mine, furloughed from Delta after 9/11, went back to DAL at 8th year pay back in 2007. Quite a big difference from my return to UAL at 2nd pay, as we were hired at nearly the same time at our respective airlines.
I stand corrected, thanks. Again, not a guru.

I still stand behind my argument. LOA 25 potentially gives a UAL furloughed pilot full credit for time spent on furlough subject only to a ruling by the arbitrator that places that pilot well below CAL pilots with similar total longevity.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:06 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Pilots please I hear a fatal error going on here in this conversation.

Longevity and ISL are not the same thing.

The goal of the ISL is to determine a fair seniority order for the combination of the two pilots. What it may not due is adjust pay since that is based on longevity while in the service of either Company.

There is a high probability a sUAL pilot to be paid more than a sCAL pilot who, after the ISL, may be senior to the sUAL pilot.

The whole purpose of establishing longevity is for pay, benefits and other sundry contractual items. The ISL determines who gets what for bidding purposes. It is highly likely longevity may come up as an item before the arbitrator, but it is not the only item he/she will have to make their decision from.

Don't confuse the two.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:11 AM   #80 (permalink)
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That's a very good point. However, they are closely linked by LOA 25. I can easily envision a scenario where a pilot's seniority is 10 years under the ISL but his longevity for pay is 11 or 12 years.
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