Notices

LOA 25 Paragraph 4

Old 11-29-2012, 06:35 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I am as guilty as the next guy.

Sled
Since we're dispelling myths, here's another one that I've seen floating around that TA 1-C-1-h Effect of Furlough doesn't apply to the s-UA pilots currently on furlough. Not directly related to the current discussion but along the same thread of s-UA pilots getting screwed.

From the TA:
1-C-1-h Effect of Furlough
If a Pilot on the Seniority List with an employment date prior to the date of signing of this Agreement is placed on fulough, the Company shall convert all 76-Seat Aircraft for operation as 70-Seat Aircraft.


Since you can never be furloughed from a company that you never worked for to begin with then you, BY DEFINITION, have an employment date prior to the DOS of the TA, if ratified.

Please people.........read the document.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:13 AM
  #62  
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Not such a screw job.....

1) Nobody, other than post JCBA hired pilots and furloughed pilots with less than 4.7 years of active service is getting full credit for time spent on furlough before SLI. Not CAL dudes. Not UAL dudes.

2) After SLI, furloughed pilots can gain longevity for pay for time spent on furlough depending on how the SLI process pans out. In any case, all pilots will be paid AT LEAST according to their years of active service. That's UAL+CAL. Nobody loses active service. PERIOD.

3) Current UAL book is NO pay longevity for time spent on furlough for anybody.

4) ANY pay longevity for time spent on furlough is a milestone in the history of United Airlines, and it is in this TA.

Last edited by jsled; 11-29-2012 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:56 AM
  #63  
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Does this then mean that CAL pilots are not getting their longevity extended for time on furlough? I thought this applied to them.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by thruthemurk View Post
Does this then mean that CAL pilots are not getting their longevity extended for time on furlough? I thought this applied to them.
That is correct. The TA furlough clause in section 3 applies to future furloughs. Let's hope we never have to use it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:10 AM
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Starting assumptions:

If you are CAL pilot, you are working at CAL under your CAL longevity, as adjusted under their current CBA

If you are a furloughed UAL pilot, then you have whatever longevity you have accrued under the current UAL CBA and a certain amount of furlough time for which you hope to receive credit (Furlough Bank)

If you are a furloughed UAL pilot currently working at CAL, then you are working under your current CAL longevity, as adjusted by the TP&A, and you have longevity accrued at UAL and a certain amount of furlough time for which you hope to receive credit (Furlough Bank)

LOA 25 makes no distinction between a furloughed UAL pilot and a furloughed CAL pilot but since CAL currently has no furloughed pilots then this LOA is currently being applied only to furloughed UAL pilots (either working at CAL or not).

Section 3-B-3 of the proposed TA applies ONLY to future furloughed pilots. It has no bearing on current or past furloughed pilots whether they are UAL or CAL.

LOA 25

LOA 25 has two important triggering events and two important "if then" statements. The two triggering events are Date of Signing and the Integrated Seniority List. Paraphrasing from LOA 25, if you are now, or ever were on furlough, and you have time accrued in your Furlough Bank then you will receive FULL CREDIT FOR ALL TIME SPENT ON FURLOUGH subject to the limitation that you will not have longevity greater than a pilot hired on 5/6/08. Practically speaking for almost every furloughed UAL pilot working at CAL, your longevity for pay purposes will be 5 years (soon to be 6) and your Furlough Bank will debited to reflect the longevity credit you have been given. Almost every UAL pilot will still have a Furlough Bank balance at this point.

The second triggering event is the ISL. If you have more time in your Furlough Bank, then at acceptance of the ISL, you will receive FULL CREDIT FOR ALL REMAINING TIME SPENT ON FURLOUGH, subject only to the limit that you will not leap frog ahead of a CAL pilot that has been place above you on the Integrated Seniority List. EXCEPT THAT, for the purposes of longevity, any CAL pilot above you that was penalized longevity for leaves of absence, THOSE REDUCTIONS SHALL BE REMOVED, effectively allowing you to take advantage of EVEN MORE furlough credit than would otherwise be due. THIS ALLOWS YOU THE GREATEST CREDIT FOR FURLOUGH TIME entitled to you subject only to the ISL process.

So why would a CAL pilot be placed above a long time furloughed UAL pilot on the integrated seniority list. Only a voluntary agreement by the UAL MEC (not in the best interest of any UAL pilot) or an adverse ruling by the arbitrator can place you below the seniority of a CAL pilot with less longevity. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS, SUBJECT ONLY TO AN ADVERSE RULING BY AN ARBITRATOR, YOU WILL RECEIVE FULL CREDIT FOR ALL TIME SPENT ON FURLOUGH!

No party can guarantee the arbitrator’s decision; therefore the TA endeavored to give furloughed pilots the greatest protection possible given an uncertain future.

Effect on ISL

If you’ve read any arbitrator rulings on merged seniority lists, and in particular the NW-Delta ruling, then you know that longevity AND current status (fleet, seat, etc.) were taken into consideration along with career expectations and other factors. The fact of the matter is that right now if you are currently furloughed then you have NO LEGAL STANDING what-so-ever. Is this a raw deal? YES IT IS! But no amount of wishing and willing will move the mountain of legal precedence to the contrary.

LOA 25 however makes no distinction between a furlough UAL pilot that is currently working at CAL and a furloughed UAL pilot that remains on furlough. At DOS, they both receive, FULL CREDIT FOR ALL TIME SPENT ON FURLOUGH subject to the 5/8/08 limitation. In other words they improve their standing is the ISL process!

If this TA fails to ratify, then while it is renegotiated, the status of the UAL furloughed pilots will be further eroded as CAL continues to grow and expand, hiring new pilots and upgrading existing pilots. Pilots whose legal standing in will be greater than your own despite your years of service and time spent on furlough. After the expiration in March 2013 of the TP&A clause governing relative block hours between the two subsidiaries, there will be one less obstacle in the way. If furloughed pilots end up stapled to the bottom of the list it will be themselves that have done the stapling.

Be informed. Vote your interests.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DirectLawOnly View Post
This applies ONLY to all future furloughees under the JCBA, if ratified. It has no bearing on current or past furloughees. In a complex legal document, context matters. Pulling one sentence or paragraph out without considering how it relates to others is a recipe for gross misinterpretation.
If this is true for CAL pilots as well, I have a new understanding. It would appear that they are getting NO longevity for time on furlough.

Is this true? If that section only applies to future furloughees, then the only section that applies to past furloughees would be LOA 25, which ONLY applies to L-UAL pilots. In other words, we are getting something that they are not.

Wow - that changes my entire perspective. It would then seem that LOA 25 is to protect CAL pilots from UAL pilots having so much longevity restored that it would move them well above CAL pilots in longevity - while the CAL pilots had no furlough time restored.

Last edited by thruthemurk; 11-29-2012 at 08:19 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by thruthemurk View Post
It would then seem that LOA 25 is to protect CAL pilots from UAL pilots having so much longevity restored that it would move them well above CAL pilots in longevity - while the CAL pilots had no furlough time restored.
It would seem that this is the trade off that was insisted on by the CAL MEC. After the ISL, then the chips will fall where they may.

I have no idea if any CAL pilots have had furlough time restored as I haven't really read their current CBA. I would be surprised though as it is my understanding that no contract in the industry has "longevity for furlough time" currently. The new TA would have it under section 3, forever fixing this problem. Again, let's hope we never have to use it.

Last edited by DirectLawOnly; 11-29-2012 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:10 AM
  #68  
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The Delta contract has longevity and the company offereed CAL Delta +$1. They negotiated it away in the hopes of making a gain in the SLI. The twice furloughed United pilots are not getting longevity for time spent on furlough. We are not even getting credit for our "years of active service". They are treating us as CAL pilots in perptuity, even after the SLI and not giving us credit for the time we actively flew at United, much less for the time we flew at United + CAL and certainly not for our time on furlough. Our MEC has sold us out with the no furlough language, the bond distribution, the inclusion of this letter etc, do you think they are going to fight til the death for us now?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DirectLawOnly View Post
It would seem that this is the trade off that was insisted on by the CAL MEC. After the ISL, then the chips will fall where they may.

I have no idea if any CAL pilots have had furlough time restored as I haven't really read their current CBA. I would be surprised though as it is my understanding that no contract in the industry has "longevity for furlough time" currently. The new TA would have it under section 3, forever fixing this problem. Again, let's hope we never have to use it.
Read current DAL FEDEX SWA...thought you were the guru?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisJT6 View Post
Read current DAL FEDEX SWA...thought you were the guru?
The latest Delta contract that just passed in the last few months, has furlough time credit. Prior to that there was no credit for furlough just like our current book. I haven't read SWA or FEDEX, but we don't work for them either so..............

NWA pilots did get some partial credit for some of the time on furlough subject to conditions, as part of the merger. s-UAL pilots have the potential to get FULL CREDIT SUBJECT ONLY TO AN ADVERSE RULING BY AN ARBITRATOR.

I assume that because you don't have any logical arguments to present you resorted to attempting to discredit me by name calling? For the record, I never claimed guru status.

Be informed. Voted your interests.
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