CousinEddie

You are really dense. Nobody was suggesting that flaps 25 is inherently dangerous. You're reading comprehension issues led you to believe otherwise. However, it does reduce certain margins. For some pilots, reducing such margins is not something they wish to do in order to save a little bit of fuel. Therefore, they elect not to land at a reduced flap setting as a normal practice.

Mistakes happen, as in the Delta 757 case above. It can be argued that if that Delta crew had used flaps 30 with such a mistake happening, there would have been just enough extra margin (tail clearance) to avoid a strike. None of us are perfect. Any of us can have a bad day, including you.

I don't have a problem with flaps 25 personally. But I fully respect another pilot that desires to operate within an envelope that expands the desired margin, even if only slightly.

Be sure and check in with us occasionally and let us know how your buddies over here are coping.

oldmako

Smart friends.

Justdoinmyjob

Well, if most pilots over there are as antagonistic in real life as you are behind a keyboard, I'm sure it'll be a long time before anyone there is happy.

CousinEddie

Did I hurt your feelings?

Say hello to Captain Happy for me over there.

Justdoinmyjob

Me? No, I'm fine. Things are great around here. Thanks for asking.

As for that joker, well, even we have our UAL wannabes.

baseball

Just got back from four days of BAT training. The impression I get from talking with the training guys (3 different instructors) is that all changes are being evaluated from a "cost" perspective. so, the changes to flaps 25 seems to be cost over everything. That being said, if they put it in the flight manual" that doesn't really mean it's smart, smarter, or the best practice. I have seen other airlines flight manuals that had incorrect MEL procedures that were contrary to the master MEL. So, it's OK to question the manual....understand why?? understand the rationale, etc.

In this case, the reason for the flaps 25 is to save about 70 pounds of fuel on an approach. That is what the initial cost estimate appears to be from what I can gather. It appears the actual cost benefit is aobut 38-50 pounds of fuel per approach.

Looking at the fuel flow from using my go-pro camera in the simulator, I noticed a net decrease in 49 pounds of fuel. I video'd 3 flaps 30 landings and 3 flaps 25 landings and had my camera aimed at the fuel flow gauges.

The fuel usage was very minimal. I did also notice an average landing roll out of 400 feet increase. That may be due to my inefficiency in my flare and roll out though.

The company is really full of crap on this flaps 25 "procedure"

also, what is the norm of other airlines flying the B757 and B767 around the world? I'd love to see an overlay of everyone's procedures and flight manuals so I can compare rationale.

Just because TK says it's the way it is, doesn't mean they are right. It's good to challenge assumptions in the name of safety and if our motivaitons for doing so are in the right place.

Each check airman/instructor I met had no sales job to offer me on the flaps 25 thing. they gave their speil and said they also don't understand why??? The only time I made a flaps 25 landing on my checkride was during gusty/potential windshear conditions and the check airman loved that. had nothing to say about my other flaps 30 landings at all.

baseball

Flaps 25 in Santa Anna?

No way.... That's nuts. (in my opinion).

Does he need more practice?

How about if the norm that he was used to was flaps 30 and he did a flaps 25 instead and it changed his sight picture. It probably changed his reference points for touchdown hence, he floated. floating can be avoided by using a consistent technique that results in a consistent sight picture.

Sight picture is important. deck angle is important. perceived touchdown point is important. difference between flaps 25 and flaps 30 may be insignificant in a 10,000 foot runway. You'll find the concrete eventually. But we operate into too many weird places. I think 30 is better than 25 unless it's gusty. 25 in gusty winds makes sense to me.

ugleeual

Root of your problem is listening to TK pilots... I'll fly 25 as SOP and do 30 when the conditions warrant... You can do whatever makes you happy. ��

Dave Fitzgerald

I used to try to do the logical thing. SFO & 757's, especially a PS with winglets, pretty much always 25 flaps. It just landed better when you were that light.

Other 757's, depended on runway turn off, weight, length where I wanted to turn, wind. You know, pilot stuff....SNA, no chance at 25. You can bet though that if it's in the book, some num nuts will try it.