Unifying the Profession
11-16-2008, 09:15 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Furloughed Righ Seater
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
That's exactly what I'm saying UTE. By the way, you shouldn't be flying for an airline after 4 years of flight instructing. What do you think you should be making? You're entire argument is completely WRONG! I surely hope you don't think the idea of "spreading the wealth around" is a good deal as well.
Yes, all the moeny should belong to you, right? Because you earned it and no one else has. Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
I feel for the young regional FO's out there, and the pay probably could be better for them. But, you are paying your dues, just as a doctor does through residency after medical school. He makes nothing too.
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
And you're wrong. Better pay at the bottom is a big part of the problem with not as much pay at the top. No incentive to leave once you make that BIG 60K CA job. Just as bigger airplanes going to the regionals is as much, if not worse of a problem.
Last edited by utedrummer; 11-16-2008 at 07:36 PM.
11-16-2008, 09:36 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: Still Swinging props!
Posts: 297
LOL! Trying to pull pilots together in one direction is like trying to HERD CATS!!
BTW, any one of you guys could make over 60,000/yr flying a 207 in Alaska, with paid company housing and bennies. That's at the entry level op, with 20/10 block days. Who here in regional world has 10 days off, together and protected, each month in their first year? Hmm? And jumpseating? The options are there, sometimes they're hard to find.
It's really sad watching what happens in our chosen career field. I've been watching it happen for 30 years, both on the maintenance side and the flight side. The original post was an exasperated "what next?" head shake, and I'm behind him. When we stop covering our own butts and start covering our collective butts, we might all take this industry in the direction WE want it to go. Until then, it's like herding cats. Good luck to us all.
Cheers,
Ronin
BTW, any one of you guys could make over 60,000/yr flying a 207 in Alaska, with paid company housing and bennies. That's at the entry level op, with 20/10 block days. Who here in regional world has 10 days off, together and protected, each month in their first year? Hmm? And jumpseating? The options are there, sometimes they're hard to find.
It's really sad watching what happens in our chosen career field. I've been watching it happen for 30 years, both on the maintenance side and the flight side. The original post was an exasperated "what next?" head shake, and I'm behind him. When we stop covering our own butts and start covering our collective butts, we might all take this industry in the direction WE want it to go. Until then, it's like herding cats. Good luck to us all.
Cheers,
Ronin
11-16-2008, 11:48 AM
#23
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Sofa Stress Tester
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
BECAUSE...If you keep making life at the regionals better, what is YOUR incentive to move on??? If the regionals keep getting better contracts with better pay, benefits, bigger airplanes, you get the picture, IT BRINGS DOWN THE PROFESSION AS A WHOLE. You're willingness to fly an RJ900, as an example, from JFK to TPA, as a regional guy for regional pay, brings down the industry a couple of notches. A flight of that length and from a market such as that should only be flown by a mainline aircraft and crew.
Eventually, you become ANOTHER major carrier because WE'VE allowed you to do it for less. There's already too much capacity out there and we don't need to keep increasing it further.
It's already coming to fruition. Look at the drawdown of the regionals with the 50 seaters going away. Now we must draw the line and not allow scope to get away again. It's time we man-up and start taking it back to the mainlines!
Again, the regionals should be viewed BY ALL as a stepping stone, not a career position that one strives to attain!
Eventually, you become ANOTHER major carrier because WE'VE allowed you to do it for less. There's already too much capacity out there and we don't need to keep increasing it further.
It's already coming to fruition. Look at the drawdown of the regionals with the 50 seaters going away. Now we must draw the line and not allow scope to get away again. It's time we man-up and start taking it back to the mainlines!
Again, the regionals should be viewed BY ALL as a stepping stone, not a career position that one strives to attain!
What's done it done. I seriously doubt that you're going to reverse the whole RJ at the regionals issue. I have always thought that regionals should have never gotton jets. But they did, and I doubt that will change. Now we must look to the future. We must fight for the right of self-help, even when a company enters chapter 11. Mainline can help themselves by putting seat scope in place and enforcing it. Next ALPA/Teamsters and other pilot unions need to look at themselves and stop undermining each other. This will allow the regional pilots and their unions to demand better compensation. Once this had been accomplished, then mainline can follow.
One thing I have learned over my time is one size does not fit all. Not all pilots want mainline for one reason or another. Does this mean they should not enjoy some kind of lifestyle? In the end what affects one end will affect the other. And what affects one side with also translate over the other side. Meaning this implecation reaches farther then just 121.
11-16-2008, 01:43 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by Beechlover
A voice of sanity! Thankyou.., I whole heartedly agree! I know the devil is in the painful details and even more painful to orchestrate. To hear someone else say it.., I'd buy you a beer if we were at a bar LOL!.
You know the hardest part, would be (I think) getting everybody to agree to what the "National List" criteria would be. Who qualifies to be on the "list" and who doesn't. Initial DOH at a part 121/135 carrier? Actually maybe the hardest part would be to have any agreement that a (single) National Seniority List could be of any benefit to us at all.
The next BIG issue would be getting the airlines/carriers to abide by it, where payscales are involved. The benefit of creating a national seniority list would primarily to protect pay and recognize experience as it should. But this would have a definate impact on their labor costs. I'm sure there are many aspects of this idea that I'm missing so please forgive my ignorance. Also I'm trying to be brief so I'm sure I'm leaving out stuff that could make the point a little stronger.
You know the hardest part, would be (I think) getting everybody to agree to what the "National List" criteria would be. Who qualifies to be on the "list" and who doesn't. Initial DOH at a part 121/135 carrier? Actually maybe the hardest part would be to have any agreement that a (single) National Seniority List could be of any benefit to us at all.
The next BIG issue would be getting the airlines/carriers to abide by it, where payscales are involved. The benefit of creating a national seniority list would primarily to protect pay and recognize experience as it should. But this would have a definate impact on their labor costs. I'm sure there are many aspects of this idea that I'm missing so please forgive my ignorance. Also I'm trying to be brief so I'm sure I'm leaving out stuff that could make the point a little stronger.
Ultimately, the value of a union is the unity and being able to strike. Everything else hinges on the ability to strike to get an employer to bargain seriously.
RLA is used to protect the consumer (thus management has the upper leg via congress (all stripes) since 1926. Vote whomever party. Since 1926, it is rigged for J. Q. Public. All parties have upheld RLA. So, even if the utopian NSL is designed, would be quashed by Congress. Thus, fruitless.
Tough enough to get unity at one, common employer, it is impossible to get unity across multi-employers. Isn't possible. Great concept though.
Better idea, get all unions to leverage off each others strengths. We need to "CO-OP", we can do this now! Talk to your union leadership. We see examples of this (ALPA), but do they work strategically with CAPA? or other independent unions? No, why not? Demand that your leaders explore how to leverage off one another. Far more realistic and absolutely possible. Spend your energies in this endeavor. We do this already to a small degree (safety), but we rarely strategize together for negotiations. Union A uses data from Union B, but collaboration is almost nil. The lines of communication needs to increase for max leverage. Also, having local unions can respond more effectively to the Lorenzo's in the business. If there is a wound, needs to be dealt with at the site, not all over. However, all other unions could support financially the ones doing the lifting. I am all for all unions getting a national strike fund put in a trust. i.e. When Airline A pilots attempt a strike, they know ALL (majority perhaps) will pay their medical, and some strike benfits to encourage them to effectively deal with the Lorenzo types instead of letting them beat our profession down.
My pennies worth.
11-16-2008, 02:19 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 73N CA
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by utedrummer
Are you implying that I was qualified or experienced? No, I was implying that you were not qualified and inexperienced.
Yes, all the moeny should belong to you, right? Because you earned it and no one else has. Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.
Wow, I'm a second year FO at a major, not a 20yr CA. And yes, I spent 12 years in the military. Point being, if I can leave 12 years of service for the majors, YOU ALSO can do the same without harming your QOL. My initial point was to the regional CA who thinks they can't leave because of this. They choose to stay for their own reasons. My point is, as ALPA or a national union for that matter, we should make them not want to stay by capping the regional salary.
Not for 7 years
Really, let's see. 4 years of college, followed by 4 years of medical school, followed by 4 years of residency, then maybe a few years of fellowship...Ok, maybe they made 30K a year while in residency and fellowship, but they still have 150K in loans. You do the math.
I have my eye on well more than $60K but its not always about the money. WOW. That's great! I live in an area where only one regional and one mainline have a base anywhere close. I would spend the REST OF MY CAREER at the regional to live at home if I couldnt get on with the mainline here. I dont want SW with their big paychecks and good routes, I want to be home with my spouse, my children, my siblings, my partents and my lifelong friends. It has nothing to do with being happy at $60K. It has everything to do with being happy with different priorites. Noble, but that's the same mentality I could have if I decide to cross a picket line. I'll work for nothing because it suites me just fine. Most career regionals pilots have made that choice and you are getting mad at them because they arnt starving for doing it?? Whats wrong with you?
Yes, all the moeny should belong to you, right? Because you earned it and no one else has. Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.
Wow, I'm a second year FO at a major, not a 20yr CA. And yes, I spent 12 years in the military. Point being, if I can leave 12 years of service for the majors, YOU ALSO can do the same without harming your QOL. My initial point was to the regional CA who thinks they can't leave because of this. They choose to stay for their own reasons. My point is, as ALPA or a national union for that matter, we should make them not want to stay by capping the regional salary.
Not for 7 years
Really, let's see. 4 years of college, followed by 4 years of medical school, followed by 4 years of residency, then maybe a few years of fellowship...Ok, maybe they made 30K a year while in residency and fellowship, but they still have 150K in loans. You do the math.
I have my eye on well more than $60K but its not always about the money. WOW. That's great! I live in an area where only one regional and one mainline have a base anywhere close. I would spend the REST OF MY CAREER at the regional to live at home if I couldnt get on with the mainline here. I dont want SW with their big paychecks and good routes, I want to be home with my spouse, my children, my siblings, my partents and my lifelong friends. It has nothing to do with being happy at $60K. It has everything to do with being happy with different priorites. Noble, but that's the same mentality I could have if I decide to cross a picket line. I'll work for nothing because it suites me just fine. Most career regionals pilots have made that choice and you are getting mad at them because they arnt starving for doing it?? Whats wrong with you?
11-16-2008, 02:36 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 73N CA
Posts: 474
Originally Posted by utedrummer
I would spend the REST OF MY CAREER at the regional to live at home if I couldnt get on with the mainline here. I dont want SW with their big paychecks and good routes, I want to be home with my spouse, my children, my siblings, my partents and my lifelong friends. It has nothing to do with being happy at $60K. It has everything to do with being happy with different priorites. Most career regionals pilots have made that choice and you are getting mad at them because they arnt starving for doing it?? Whats wrong with you?
11-16-2008, 04:40 PM
#27
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Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 143
Rhino -
So you're saying you want regional CA pay capped at $25/hr? According to the APC profiles, that is the lowest 1st yr FO pay at US Air.
You were making about the the same as an 8-yr regional CA by the time you left the military for wherever you are now, and obviously weren't "too comfortable" to stay in.
Even if it's your intent to use the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, circumstances out of your control may leave you at the regional level for upwards of 10 years before you are even competitive to be hired by a major airline. Then, are you lucky enough that the majors are hiring at that time? Maybe, maybe not.
You're against "spreading the wealth," but seem you'd rather blame others for the degradation of the industry? Seem to be of opposite philosophies and pretty ballsy for someone in their 2nd year of the 121 world. You may have paid your dues elsewhere, but stop acting like you've paid them in the airlines.
Plus, I just don't think your logic is good. It's the regional pilots who are causing the problem by taking a low wage job? But, they are also getting too comfortable because wages are too high? So the solution is for them to accept a job that caps out at little more than what regional FOs make now? Doesn't compute.
I don't like to see mainline jobs go away either, but it's happened, and there's little chance of ever going back. So I think we need to fight for better wages at all levels, not put caps on anyone.
So you're saying you want regional CA pay capped at $25/hr? According to the APC profiles, that is the lowest 1st yr FO pay at US Air.
You were making about the the same as an 8-yr regional CA by the time you left the military for wherever you are now, and obviously weren't "too comfortable" to stay in.
Even if it's your intent to use the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, circumstances out of your control may leave you at the regional level for upwards of 10 years before you are even competitive to be hired by a major airline. Then, are you lucky enough that the majors are hiring at that time? Maybe, maybe not.
You're against "spreading the wealth," but seem you'd rather blame others for the degradation of the industry? Seem to be of opposite philosophies and pretty ballsy for someone in their 2nd year of the 121 world. You may have paid your dues elsewhere, but stop acting like you've paid them in the airlines.
Plus, I just don't think your logic is good. It's the regional pilots who are causing the problem by taking a low wage job? But, they are also getting too comfortable because wages are too high? So the solution is for them to accept a job that caps out at little more than what regional FOs make now? Doesn't compute.
I don't like to see mainline jobs go away either, but it's happened, and there's little chance of ever going back. So I think we need to fight for better wages at all levels, not put caps on anyone.
11-16-2008, 04:52 PM
#28
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: E-190/175/170
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
You sound like a young guy. I would suggest you look to a different profession if you're going to be happy making 60K a year, regardless of your reasons. I, WE AS A PROFESSION INCLUDED, didn't invest all this time and energy, blood, sweat, tears, and a little combat in between, too come back to a profession that has been torn apart and ravaged because of people like you. I suggest you go to Burger King or McDonalds. As long as you've got a college degree, and I'm hoping you do, you should have no trouble getting into a management program making 60K per year!
Everybody has a situation they have to live with right? For example, I spent 20 years of my life in the military, retired, and now at the ripe young age of 44 am currently flying for a 50 to 86 seat regional. I consider myself to be pretty open minded, relatively tolerant of differing points of view on ANY subject. After all it's just conversation, not combat right? I've seen my fair share of deployments and campaigns. Here's the thing, I see as I stated in my original first post, and you just made my point for me.
Do you really believe that regional carriers are the cause for the so called race to the bottom? This argument of "that life is soo good that pilots are'nt willing to work to get to what should be the pinnacle of a pilot's career, the "Majors." I agree with you that in the last 15 or so years, regional carriers have become to look more and more like the Legacy carriers they work with.., yes. Regionals have evolved from short hop turbo props to 86+ seat jets capable of transcontinental range, equipped with the latest in modern avionics, and all the comforts and conveniences, yadda yadda.
I'll be the first to admit, that I may very well spend the next 21 years of my remaining flying career right here. And the way things are looking, I'm gonna be see a six figure salary here (luck and health permitting of course). Not to shabby if you ask me. Doesn't mean I'm closing the door to opportunity, but the single biggest impediment to me leaving for a Major carrier is the seniority system as it exists today. So after having completed one career, I'm well aware of what it's gonna take to make me happy.
Now.., let me ask you a rhetorical question.., what do you think the single biggest reason is that podunk regional carriers evolved to what we have today? Beggining the "race to mediocrity." or the bottom for that matter?
One word..., SCOPE. Who has control of scope.., um I think that woiuld the pilots who are employed at the respective "Major" carriers. The simple fact is, regionals didn't "Steal" anything, it was GIVEN away by pilots senior to you and me, for what ever reason or concession management gave them in return.
Don't take my word for it, ask any senior Capt at your carrier. Any rational pilot who's been paying attention in this industry will know what I'm saying. Regional pilots aren't the bad guys, we as a pilot group are selling our selves out for a buck or a job security (a promise to not furlough) or more flying you name it. Somebody sold our profession to management piece by piece in order to prevent an undesirable outcome, or for some short term negotiated benefit. What ever the reason is irrelevant.
So now that we are WAAAY of topic I'll atempt to steer us back on by saying if anybody is still interested please follow this link and take a look, at what this person had to say on the subject of a National Seniority List two years ago.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...rity-list.html
Last edited by Beechlover; 11-16-2008 at 06:12 PM.
11-16-2008, 05:52 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: FDX 767 FO
Posts: 817
Originally Posted by utedrummer
Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.
How does the bold item above make his argument stronger/weaker? Is it just a dig from a guy that feels ex-military don't have his level of experience or they didn't sacrifice what he has?
I have seen this a few places and I have yet to understand the argument or lack thereof.
11-16-2008, 07:04 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 73N CA
Posts: 474
Beech,
This paragraph came from the article.
"I think the NSL should be based on your DOH at any 121 carrier. This allows APA, SWAPA, otherwise affiliated and unafiliated pilots to get on board. I think that 100% endorsement of the NSL by 121 pilot groups is essential, even if they are not ALPA represented."
This leaves out one of the largest pilot pools, and I would argue the group the majors most consistently look to for potential employment, the x-military guy. There is no way a guy hired with 250 hours (even 1000 hours) at a regional, should be granted a national seniority number just because it's a 121 carrier. I look at the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, just as many have used the military.
Even so, how can you argue a national list? We don't work for ALPA, we work for individual airlines. And as I stated earlier, there's a conflict of interest for regional pilots to be represented by the same union as the majors.
This paragraph came from the article.
"I think the NSL should be based on your DOH at any 121 carrier. This allows APA, SWAPA, otherwise affiliated and unafiliated pilots to get on board. I think that 100% endorsement of the NSL by 121 pilot groups is essential, even if they are not ALPA represented."
This leaves out one of the largest pilot pools, and I would argue the group the majors most consistently look to for potential employment, the x-military guy. There is no way a guy hired with 250 hours (even 1000 hours) at a regional, should be granted a national seniority number just because it's a 121 carrier. I look at the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, just as many have used the military.
Even so, how can you argue a national list? We don't work for ALPA, we work for individual airlines. And as I stated earlier, there's a conflict of interest for regional pilots to be represented by the same union as the majors.
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