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Old 11-13-2008, 01:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Unifying the Profession

Something struck me as odd about they way we (as pilot groups) working for our individual airlines, sometimes seem to be at odds with each other.., ie pilots of other airlines. Here's the thing I'm seeing..., managment at airline X makes a contract with Airline Y. Airline X is a "mainline (Legacy payscale) Airline. Airline Y is a (Regional payscale) airline. X's pilots are angry because the contract is a threat to their flying/job security/scope.., Whipsaw you name it (pick a reason.., any reason. In many instances, I see pilots of not only airline X but many others criticise the pilot group of airline Y when THEY have ZERO (ZERO), I'll say it again.., ZEEROO control over what contracts or agreements their mangements enter into.

Folks I'm just making an observation.., of course this is just my soda straw perspective of the universe and my opinion doesn't count.

Just seems like we as a US pilot group spend and inordinate amount of time jumping on each other when we should be trying to strengthen this profession. What's it gonna take, I mean really.

I Retired from the Air Force after doing my 20, got my ratings and now I'm knee deep in the regional hooplah. So just a regular guy living the dream.., or trying to anyway. We all gotta start somewhere right?
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What you have to remember is that we at airline Y are doing everyone else including ourselves a disservice by not refusing our employment at airline Y in order for the pilots at airline X to make things better for us all.

In all seriousness, all airline employees do the same job, just for different companies. Those companies while having a professional respect for one another (to an extent) are fiercely competitive. Almost everything about our industry is a numbers game. And that drives the competition. The same is true of the pilot groups of said airlines largely because our livelihood (read, seniority...numbers) are tied to it. And this is what makes it personal, eventhough it really shouldn't be.

Im happy to report however that the mainline guys of my company's parent have been nothing short of professional, friendly and more than accomodating when I ask for a ride home or to work...each and every one of them without exception.
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I've had similiarly good experiences with several other mainline and regional crews. I love my job and the folks I work with have been great. Like you said, I think most understand the business and how things work. Being the "new guy" with the proverbial fresh pair of eyes, I can't help but have the knee jerk reaction of, hey can't we fix this? (profession)

Of course I realize the 'fixing' part is never easy, neat, or clean. Especially where airline management, unionization and individual (airline specific)seniority lists are concerned.
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Old 11-15-2008, 05:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I have never, ever, EVER had any pilot--regional, mainline, or otherwise--give me any sort of guff for where I work (Chautauqua). It's just that the keyboard warriors here that are "changing the world" one whiny post at a time are an extremely vocal and annoying minority. Common sense would dictate that if there were ANY group of people that would understand how pilots factor in to the decisions their respective airlines make (as in not at all ever) it would be pilots. Curiously, this is not the case.

I'm all for unifying the profession but it will never happen as long as we have idiots swinging their "egos" around because X airline called them back for an interview before Y airline. Seriously, the week after I accepted a class date with CHQ I got calls from no less than five others at which I could just as easily have found myself--and I'm sure a large percentage of people are in the same boat, so what the crap are we all arguing about?
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechlover View Post
Something struck me as odd about they way we (as pilot groups) working for our individual airlines, sometimes seem to be at odds with each other.., ie pilots of other airlines. Here's the thing I'm seeing..., managment at airline X makes a contract with Airline Y. Airline X is a "mainline (Legacy payscale) Airline. Airline Y is a (Regional payscale) airline. X's pilots are angry because the contract is a threat to their flying/job security/scope.., Whipsaw you name it (pick a reason.., any reason. In many instances, I see pilots of not only airline X but many others criticise the pilot group of airline Y when THEY have ZERO (ZERO), I'll say it again.., ZEEROO control over what contracts or agreements their mangements enter into.

Folks I'm just making an observation.., of course this is just my soda straw perspective of the universe and my opinion doesn't count.

Just seems like we as a US pilot group spend and inordinate amount of time jumping on each other when we should be trying to strengthen this profession. What's it gonna take, I mean really.

I Retired from the Air Force after doing my 20, got my ratings and now I'm knee deep in the regional hooplah. So just a regular guy living the dream.., or trying to anyway. We all gotta start somewhere right?

DOH, National List, One Union.
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Old 11-15-2008, 01:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
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DOH, National List, One Union.

A voice of sanity! Thankyou.., I whole heartedly agree! I know the devil is in the painful details and even more painful to orchestrate. To hear someone else say it.., I'd buy you a beer if we were at a bar LOL!.

You know the hardest part, would be (I think) getting everybody to agree to what the "National List" criteria would be. Who qualifies to be on the "list" and who doesn't. Initial DOH at a part 121/135 carrier? Actually maybe the hardest part would be to have any agreement that a (single) National Seniority List could be of any benefit to us at all.

The next BIG issue would be getting the airlines/carriers to abide by it, where payscales are involved. The benefit of creating a national seniority list would primarily to protect pay and recognize experience as it should. But this would have a definate impact on their labor costs. I'm sure there are many aspects of this idea that I'm missing so please forgive my ignorance. Also I'm trying to be brief so I'm sure I'm leaving out stuff that could make the point a little stronger.
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I would love to see and would entirely support and be a member of ONE NATIONAL PILOT LIST and UNION, I would even go so far as to say I would like to see one pilot union do all the employment, basically hire all the pilots and then "lease" them out to companies, but thats a little extreme, so I will settle for a national list/union.
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Best thread I have seen on the National Seniority List:

National Seniority List

Read it. Find a way to implement it.
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Old 11-16-2008, 05:48 AM   #9 (permalink)
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How about NO! Better yet, just nationalize (socialize) the seniority list of the regional carriers. That way, it will give guys even more incentive to stay at the lower level of this profession and not move up. (SARCASM)

NO FLAME BAIT, just here it out. This would be better for all in the long run.

The demise of this profession rest with the regional pilot. The guy who is willing to accept 60-70K as a CAREER regional captain for doing what he should be paid a heck of a lot more for.

I once asked a buddy of mine (RJ CA), shortly after I was hired, if he was thinking about stepping up to the majors while hiring was HOT. His response was that he didn't want to start over for less pay and he was comfortable with his current position and salary as a career.

The best way to bring this profession back to where it should be, is to cap the maximum regional pay to that of the lowest FO pay of the majors. That will kill the incentive to stay at the lower end of the spectrum.

This will create more turn-over at the regional level and make it less profitable for the smaller airlines. Cap the regional carriers to short haul flights with smaller aircraft and make them truly commuter airlines.

Bring anything over 70 seats to the mainline carriers, creating more hiring in the upper spectrum.

The CA of a 70+ seat MAINLINE RJ, should be paid more than the highest paid 747 FO.

You want to restore this profession, stop considering a job as a regional RJ CA a career expectation. The regionals used to be considered a stepping stone, not a final stop. As long as WE are willing to accept the current system, nothing is going to change.

Mainline pilots need to take back scope, and regional pilots need to strive to keep climbing the ladder. Best way to help that is to lower the maximum pay at the regionals, and bring anything over 70 seats back to mainline at mainline wages!

Now stop this national seniority stuff. I work for a SPECIFIC airline, not ALPA.
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Old 11-16-2008, 05:55 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Rhino...the problem with that is that if we go through tough economic times which we can't seem to escape lately, there won't be any hiring at the majors. And everything at the regionals will be stagnant with even lower paying jobs according to your logic. Today there aren't too many regionals that cap capt pay at 60-70K. It more like 100 for those with descent contracts. The problem with regionals isn't really at the top end with the capt pay. Its the low end F/O pay that starts at 20K and very often caps at 40K or so.
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