Boogie Nights

We have our own in house union that seems riddled with conflict.

Any thoughts? This is my 1st union job and would like some persective.
Unbaised opinions please. What are the advantages / disadvantages of ALPA.

Thanks in advance for thoughtful discourse, please keep it objective (if you can) Give me the good / bad.

1515greenlight

We're a big union with a history of eating our young. With the merger of DAL and NWA, they will pretty much run the house since they are the largest group here. If they decide that you are an impediment, watch out.

I think in time we'll be legacy only and serve the needs and wants of only the merged giants. Which is where the money is.

If you're at AirTran I'd be asking myself how much support I'll really get if DAL is calling the shots behind closed doors and I'm the thorn in their side in ATL. You might be better working to fix your in house problems and then making decisions.

cospilot

When you talk about unions, it is like talking politics or religion, everyone has their opinion (sometimes VERY strong opinions), and they ARE entitled to it.

If you believe your company needs a union and would benefit from one, then you should vote that way.

If you believe your company would do better without a union, then you are obliged to follow that route as well. Just be educated, make your decision, and then live with it.

If your company has a union, well, you have to live with it for better or worse, and I sincerely hope that the union represents you well.

Here are a few facts that I know about unions.

A union can only guarantee two things:

1. The right to strike.
2. Make its members pay dues (approx. 3% of paycheck) and assessments.

Here are some other fun-facts-of-know-and-tell:

• Since 1994, the average length of nine airline union contract negotiations was three years.
• Scope clauses keep major carriers from taking advantage of a small fraction of potential benefits of RJs.
• Once a union is voted in, it's very hard to remove. There is no official way to decertify a union.
• Union contract negotiations average 15 months and are rarely completed before the present contract expires.
• When the Comair pilot strike of 2001 ended, 400 pilot jobs were eliminated upon their return to work.
• During the 89-day strike, Comair pilots did not get paid thus they forfeited over $8.4 M in wages.
• Mesa Airlines is represented by a union. Ask a Mesa pilot what the union has done for them.

I am sure there were, and are, some benefits to a union and I would like to hear them. I mean that sincerely and without malice.

jonnyjetprop

I think the biggest mistake that people make about unions is that they are seen as a white knight riding in to save the day.

Since you stated that your in house union has problems, I'll bet that your airline will be no better under ALPA or any other union. It's the membership that truely makes a union.

I flew for two non union commuter airlines and a non union FAR 121 cargo outfit prior to working at a Teamster airline. Here was my experiences as a non union pilot:

Captains were hired off the street, therefore there were no upgrades unless they couldn't find a "street captain".

When the company did decide to upgrade, they trained in the strongest to the weakest canidate order. That was a closed process. I was lucky and upgraded, others didn't.

Employment terms were changed on the whim. I went from being homebased with a guarentee of 60 hours to a Miami base with no monthly guarentee in two weeks.

While no one was ever fired, they just didn't get scheduled to fly. So you rocked the boat at your own risk.

Of course, things like retirement, loss of license insurance, medical advise, and accident investagition were just not there.

Will ALPA make things better? It will be worse before anything would get better. If your group can stand firm, things will get better. If your group is weak, they the company will run over you, union or not.

Twin Wasp

Having worked at a carrier that had an inhouse that merged with ALPA and a carrier that was ALPA and went Teamsters, it's really about the people in the local MEC. ALPA likes to say they have a "toolbox" with lots of stuff in it for the local to use. I had some great safety training with them, they have classes on negotiation and grievances and their aeromedical folks know their stuff. If you join ALPA you'll get a new set of bylaws. If you end up with the same folks on the MEC I wouldn't expect too many changes. Maybe if they're trainable and make use of some of the tools. As has been said above, if you're not Delta or United, you don't show up on their TCAS.

1515greenlight

A lot of what has been added is correct. Couple of differences as I see them:

ALPA dues are at 1.95%
Teamsters are about 1.56%

With ALPA, your money goes to them and they dole out what they want. You never have a surplus unless you are a big guy with a very small budget...meaning forget it.

With Teamsters, they get .22% of the 1.56%. The rest stays with the local. To use as seen fit. They have a lot better financial oversight. It means you can build up your own finances and war chest to use for hiring experts, whatever.

If your current in house leadership is pushing for someone to come in, expect them to be the ones in charge for a while afterwards. They will be touted as the best for you. If in fact you do have a mess on your hands with them, nothing will change except the name of the union. Better off to clean the house first and then speak to all who might come in.

I know that happened recently at AirTran. The Teamsters backed away only because they felt that the pilots needed to resolve their internal issues first before joining another union. Otherwise it would compound the problems. Kinda refreshing to hear a union head make a statement like that. They were more interested in getting the AirTran guys to understand they needed to first fix things internally instead of them (the IBT) coming in just to collect someones hard earned $$

Maybe there's hope.

Pilotpip

Everybody speaks of "the union" as some sort of autonomous being. "The union" is as strong as the volunteers at your airline. I want better work conditions and I've always been one of those "you're part of the problem or part of the solution" types so I'm going to be volunteering for something soon like FO rep or jumpseat committee so our EXCO can work on more bigger fish like the contract.

I've seen good, bad and indifferent in my short time at the airlines. I was at an ALPA carrier, I'm at a Teamster 747 carrier now.

Teamsters dues are 1.65% of guarantee only. ALPA is 1.95% of your total.

ALPA has loss of medical insurance, and some other very pilot-specific aid. Teamsters don't.

Which way you go is a wash. Who you have in the trenches at your airline makes a bigger difference IMO.

TheDashRocks

[quote=cospilot;556518]
A union can only guarantee two things:

1. The right to strike.
2. Make its members pay dues (approx. 3% of paycheck) and assessments.

Here are some other fun-facts-of-know-and-tell:

• Since 1994, the average length of nine airline union contract negotiations was three years.
• Once a union is voted in, it's very hard to remove. There is no official way to decertify a union.
• Union contract negotiations average 15 months and are rarely completed before the present contract expires.

Unions in this industry are hampered by the Railway Labor Act. This causes ridiculously lengthy negotiations and an incredible series of hoops to jump through before a strike can be initiated. This is not the fault of unions and the solution is to join and support a union and its efforts to change labor law. I think your dues figure is a little high. My previous union dues were less than my monthly cable TV bill.

• Mesa Airlines is represented by a union. Ask a Mesa pilot what the union has done for them.

The Mesa pilot group waged a successful battle to convert Freedom Airlines from a non-union alter ego into a union operation. This placed us in a better strategic position for the contract negotiations that have just been concluded.

Our new contract has increased my days off from 104 to 132 per year. I am now paid the higher of historic block or actual block times. Cancellation pay has been improved. I consider the new agreement a positive achievement by our union in a time of economic strife.

This is ******* right. Do not be stingy with your ideas and your time.

In my previous career I was an Air Traffic Controller from 1982 until 2008. I worked in this field first during the non-union period after Reagan broke the PATCO strike, and then during the growth of the current controller's union, NATCA.

During the non-union period, a disgruntled trainee had washed out of two other facilities and was about to wash out of my facility. He made up a story about witnessing wide spread drug use among controllers. He listed about 20 people, most of whom he chose at random.

The folks on his list were called in to meet with a manager and "security" officials from the regional office. Keep in mind that the only evidence was the claim by this failing individual, no positive urine, no drugs found in lockers or on their person, no record of arrest, etc.

Some of these people were questioned and released. Some were forced into rehab programs that they had to pay for out of pocket. One guy had to pay over $10,000 in '84 dollars to enter an in-patient program. Did they have a choice? Sure. At this meeting they were told, "take the deal or sign this letter of resignation." They were given no time to talk to a lawyer. No union existed to provide advice. They were not even given time to think it over.

One of the "suspects" was asked about a party at her home. She was told that an investigation revealed that drug use had been widespread and blatant at this party. She responded that this was absolutely untrue. She was asked if she could provide corraboration.

"Sure, you can ask my father. He was at the party", she replied.

"Give us his contact information", they demanded.

"Contact the ____ Valley Sheriff's Station".

"Is he in custody?", they asked smelling blood.

"No. He is the Captain." She was released without further discussion.

I would never choose to work without a union.

aeromike49

I was at a company that was non union, and 2 different unions at different times - a Union is no better than its members - it is NOT the union that does the work - it is the MEMBERS - certainly a vast amount of resources are available from a Union - but again it is up to the members - to make it work !

unemployedagain

Never again for me. Alpa was a ghost watching as my past airline was attacked and ultimately put down. It all depends where in the union your airline ranks, if a small one. Or under the thumb of another, it does not work.
Not sure about the teamsters. In house would be best, I understand it depends of the volunteers, but alpa may or may not do anything to help your situation.