shiznit

Yep! I wholeheartedly agree.

globalexpress

I hate to say it but I wonder if the TWA guys are really going to get a "big payout" out of this. Obviously the jury found ALPA National guilty so they must have found specific things that ALPA did that denied the TWA pilots fair representation.

If I remember correctly (the TWA guys can correct me if I'm wrong) but at the time TWA was essentially bankrupt and there was a chance of liquidation and a piecemeal sale of their more valuable assets. AA was the only suitor that came forward to make any sort of deal that wouldn't have risked TWA getting broken up or at the very least having gone through the bankruptcy process or liquidation.

Even if ALPA had not messed up and the TWA pilots had received "perfect" representation, does anyone think that all TWA pilots would have been completely integrated in the AA seniority list and placed ahead of pilots at a profitable airline? Probably not. At best, there might have been a "better" integration (whatever that would have looked like- the APA had protections in their contract) but likely many of the TWA guys would have been on the street anyway. At worst, the TWA guys could have told AA and the APA to take a hike. TWA would then have ended up in bankruptcy and likely liquidation or fragmentation with a resultant large loss of jobs as well.

I wonder if ALPA is going to get slapped for doing the wrong thing and forced to pay some sort of damages for their mistakes. I don't know if a judge or a jury determines damages for the TWA pilots, but I wonder if the damages they can prove will be minimal for most of the pilots, particularly the junior ones. It wasn't ALPA that trashed their careers- the damage was already done years before and came to fruition at the end of 2001 with their third bankruptcy. The TWA pilots faced a lose-lose scenario and had to pick the less stinky alternative. Either choice would likely have resulted in a tremendous loss of jobs no matter what.

If you're likely to lose your job no matter what happens, what is one's damages? I guess we'll find out.

DAL 88 Driver

That all sounds fair enough. I left there before all this happened... so I don't know if all your facts are correct or not. The only thing I would point out is that there is a HUGE difference between almost any kind of seniority integration and being stapled to the bottom of the list. My classmates with 1989 hire dates had almost 12 years seniority when AA purchased TWA in 2001. They immediately lost their Captain seats and then were furloughed for many years after 9/11. Now, 20+ years into their career with TWA/AA, they are all in their late 40's, 50's, and 60's and I doubt they'll ever have enough seniority to fly Captain before they hit age 65 and have to retire. Combined with all those years on furlough and now flying on junior First Officer pay... those guys have taken unbelievable hits to their career. It has basically been ruined.

Now all that is not 100% ALPA's fault. But the misrepresentation that resulted in their being stapled was a very big part of it. It will be interesting to see how the judge will quantify that. I'm not completely unbiased... but I hope those guys get some serious compensation for this.

eaglefly

Another question I have, is does this apply to ALL TWA pilots or just those who participated (and I assume paid for) this legal action ?

Not sure if just an X number of TWA pilots elected to spearhead this (and foot the bill, if they lost) and let the remainder enjoy a reward for no risk (class action) or if only those who took the financial risk, get the payoff. It could be a huge difference for ALPA depending on who the suit involves.

IMO, the TWA pilots carrier and career prospects were extremely tenuous at best and the belief of a complete Allegheny-Mohawk DOH would definately seem like a windfall result. Nonetheless, the TWA pilots paid for and had a right to expect that their bargaining representative would have gone to bat for THEIR interests as opposed to the bargaining reps nterest and that obviously didn't happen (and that's a PATTERN with ALPA).

ALPA claims their going to fight this tooth and nail, but not sure what they can do. They supposedly have to choke up the cash once the award is determined and THEN fund any secondary defense and that's where it could get really sticky for current ALPA pilots.

Can't wait to see the battle cry slogan for that one..........

Wasatch Phantom

A few pages ago I asked for the Cliff Notes version of the lawsuit. Sniper kindly wrote those out. I also read about 30 pages of the Seham report. I was blown away how ALPA completely breached their responsibilities to the TWA pilots. I would say ALPA Nationals conduct was beyond reprehensible.

The TWA pilots had in their working agreement specific language that defined the process by which they would be integrated in a merger with another carrier. IIRC there were 2,250 TWA pilots and of that, about 1,200 were stapled to the bottom of the American seniority list. And they were placed behind over 400 pilots who were hired by American but weren't on the payroll when AMR agreed to purchase TWA.

As EXTW put it, there basically wasn't a seniority list integration.

When Delta acquired parts of Pan Am they did it (IIRC) with Pan Am in Chapter 11. Delta purchased Pan Am's NY Shuttle operation, their Frankfurt hub operation (inter-European flying) and their North Atlantic routes. They acquired 28 727s and 21 A-310s and the pilots to fly that metal.

They did not take any 747s or A-300s, nor did they purchase any of Pan Am's considerable Latin American/Caribbean operation.

The Pan Am pilots who came to Delta were integrated on a ratioed basis starting at about number 600. I think there were some flight engineers who ended up at the bottom but not a great number of them.

My personal opinion is the affected TWA pilots suffered hugely and are entitled to damages commensurate with that.

eaglefly

Disn't the Midwest guys/gals all get a similar deal when ALPA turned their backs on them (i.e., everyone got a complete shafting) ?

Sounds like a pattern to me.

I think it is all their fault. The TWA pilots couldn't have reasonably expected the APA to look out for them (especially the APA, considering the past). Just as all the other mergers with SLI integration problems, virtually all of which end up dogfights with each side considering max benefit to themselves. AMR certainly wasn't interested in the plight of TWA pilots and couldn't be expected to be, just like when SWA bought that 737 carrier out west (what was their name) and stapled all those guys, I believe or the potential ugliness with the Air Tran situation. I've heard some say they'll go after the APA next and/or AMR, but that would be another 9-year dogfight with a much smaller chance of prevailing. They can't sue the APA for faliure to represent (or not playing nice) and going after AMR which has much deeper pockets then ALPA and 10 times the legal talent who could stall it out for years past the 9 it took to hammer ALPA, seems a good way to releave themselves of much of any reward from ALPA to a new round of lawyers for a substantially slimmer chance of success.

ALPA's faliures were glaring and aggregious and it's obvious now. Anyone know what the next move is toward the damages phase ?

captnmajic

Agreed. It's time for ALPA to decide who they are going to represent. ALPA can't continue to be everything to everybody. ALPA's founding fathers never intended for them to represent the entire spectrum of pilots from those of us at the traditional trunk carriers/majors all the way down to the smallest of the upstarts/regionals. Simply too much conflict of interest.

DAL 88 Driver

Yep. I agree.


I was just trying to say that the circumstances that led to TWA's difficulties and resulted in AA purchasing them were not ALPA's fault. The way ALPA represented the TWA pilots... most definitely ALPA's fault.


From what I know of it, I agree.

globalexpress

I'm a disinterested outsider as I discuss this stuff, keep in mind, although I do find the case interesting from a personal point of view.

I have read all the court documents that have been publicly available, including the Seham report. I am also currently trying to get the transcript from the District Court of NJ to read what was actually said, but I'm not sure how to do that yet or even if it is available. If I can get a PDF, I'll post it.

Anyway, you have to keep in mind that Seham's is "one side" of the argument, albeit the winning one. The other court filing had ALPA's point of view, and they seemed to have some interesting points as well but yes, they lost.

There's a reason why I don't think the TWA pilots would have received much of a "better" seniority list integration (and therefore damages may be limited). It is my understanding that through the APA's union pilot contract with American Airlines they could put the kabosh on the whole TWA deal if TWA ALPA didn't drop their contractual protections concerning merger/integration.

So let's say, again, the TWA ALPA pilots received "perfect" representation and they refused to back down on anything less than an excellent deal for the TWA pilots. The TWA pilots would therefore not have dropped their Labor Protective Provisions (LPP). So then what does the APA do? Well, the logical thing is that they would have said sorry, the deal's dead. The TWA's LPP and APA's contractual protections appear to be mutually exclusive. APA is obviously not going to integrate 2500 pilots from a bankrupt airline into their list. APA's seniority list contract provisions trump TWA ALPA's, the deal would have been dead, and perhaps 2500 TWA ALPA pilots lose everything in the resultant bankruptcy and possible liquidation/fragmentation.

Or what if TWA ALPA said no way, we're not dropping our LPPs of our contract, we're not getting a good enough seniority deal, so TWA goes into bankruptcy. If you're the Board of TWA, and American is offering you the only viable offer, and the only thing stopping it is a pilot union's LPP, what's the first thing you do in bankruptcy? You go to the bankruptcy judge and void that section of the pilot contract immediately. Now you have 2500 pilots with no LPP and no deal with the APA at all to consider any seniority list integration. By willingly dropping the LPP under the advice of ALPA lawyers I assume, TWA ALPA at least had some sort of deal with the APA to consider integration, and ultimately some TWA pilots were integrated.

As a side note, if TWA had liquidated or fragmented or whatever and ALL the TWA pilots lost the opportunity the APA gave them by dropping the LPPs of their contract, do you sue ALPA for not pursuing that avenue when they had the chance? I wonder if ALPA gets sued either way!

Regardless, that's why I wonder what kind of damages the pilots can really expect. ALPA was found to have messed up, so they should definitely get something. But can a couple of thousand of pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline expect to be compensated for a decade of "lost" earnings that likely would have been "lost" anyway? We shall see I guess.

All Nighter

I hear this crap all the time...that TWA was in bankruptcy and would have been out of business. That's pure BS.


The final bankruptcy of TWA was CONTRIVED by TWA CEO Bill Compton and AA CEO Don Carty for over a year before it became public. Compton had talks with Carty about buying TWA long before anyone knew about it. But AA didn't want Carl Icahn involved in any way and Icahn had 2 years remaining in his very lucrative Karabu Agreement. TWA went into the winter of 1999 with more money in the bank than they'd ever had in decades. TWA was making money and winning J.D. Powers customer service awards left and right. That's the VERY reason AA agreed to the purchase, because TWA just would not die as quickly as AA had hoped and it appeared TWA was on the path to resurgence. Carty told Compton the only way to eliminate Icahn was through bankruptcy court...the problem at the time was that TWA had too much money in the bank and would have been laughed out of the courthouse. Compton undertook to pay forward on lease payments, gate leases, landing fees, fuel bills, etc. to eliminate the excess cash so as to make bankruptcy, and the subsequent AA purchase, viable to the court. Carty agreed that AMR would step in as the "white knight" and purchase TWA's assets.

Once in BK court, Carl Icahn bid for the assets and was dismissed by the court. Unfortunately for AMR, Jay Alex and Boeing also put up a viable bid to keep TWA together. Carty went into the hallway and discussed with his team. When he came back in he asked the judge "what would make the difference here"?. Judge Kimba Woods told him that her concern was for the employees of TWA. Carty then increased AMR's bid for the assets to match the Boeing offer AND agreed to take ALL TWA employees covered under a contract. Jay Alex and Boeing admitted their plan was to "necessarily downsize the company but Boeing would provide an entirely new fleet. Carty promised the judge that AMR would use their very best efforts to ensure a "fair and equitable integration" (that never happened).

Carty won the bidding war and the rest is history....but to say TWA was bankrupt and would not have survived is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. I've also heard people say TWA would never have survived 9/11...that's also a crock. At the time, AWA was essentially in the very same financial position as TWA. In fact, merger talks between TWA and AWA had been explored for some time prior. Post 9/11 AWA received government bailout money that kept them alive through that period and still survives today. What makes you think TWA wouldn't have received government money and survived as well?

Bottom line - The TWA pilots DID tell AA/APA that they would not give up scope. The ALPA national attorneys physically SCREAMED at the MEC and DEMANDED that they give up scope. AMR threatened an 1113 filing and ALPA national told the TWA MEC they would not defend them in that proceeding. Essentially, the TWA pilots were RAILROADED by ALPA national into giving up the only protections they had and were left to twist in the wind.

Thus the jury has spoken.