Go Back   Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Union Talk
Register FAQ Advertising Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Union Talk For macro-level discussion: legislation, national unions, organizing pilot groups, etc.
For airline-specific discussion, use relevant forum above.

 

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums

    Already registered? Login above

OR
 
To take advantage of all the site's features, become a member of
the largest community of airline pilots in the U.S. and beyond.

The advertising to the left will not show if you are a registered user.

Join the Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-29-2011, 06:55 AM   #171 (permalink)
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: MD80
Posts: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by globalexpress View Post
Yes, if you could find the transcripts to the court case, the actual testimony, that would be great. I have a paralegal buddy but he only sent me the stuff I had mostly already on that TWA court website. I'm not looking to nitpick your points about the sequence of events. I just want to read the case and the testimony.
Working on it. Most of the people who have what you request are involved in the lawsuit and don't have time at the moment to go digging in their archives. Will pass it along if/when I get it.


Quote:
Color me deluded. The shareholders own the corporation. The Board is supposed to be a steward of the corporation. If any member of the board and/or management took cash, property, whatever, "out of the company" illegally, then they are stealing from the shareholders. Period. Agree to disagree.
Yes, the shareholders "own" the corporation but the BOD "runs" it. I didn't say anyone "took cash, property, whatever, out of the company illegally". What I said was "any half-wit accountant can HIDE money and assets LEGALLY through loop holes in GAAP and SEC reporting rules. Case in point, AMR requested and was granted an SEC reporting waiver for a serious amount of cash last year. Basically, they don't want anyone to know what they're up to and asked the SEC to allow them to keep it off of the records until 2019. The SEC granted the waiver....so much for your trust in the official paper trail as a "tell-all".

Quote:
Now I did find TWA's 10K filings. I did see, for example, where TWA prepaid some obligations, but the prepayments were accounted for as a company asset. It is very easy to see and was a line item on their 10K. Also, TWA was losing significant amounts of money for the 3 years leading up to their last filed 10K, at a time when other airlines were very profitable. Management might have been moving money from one column to another, but there is no way in my opinion they were cooking the books to the tune of those losses. Again, agree to disagree.
I'm working on getting permission from the author...the man who was the TWA Pilots representative on the TWA BOD...to post a letter he recently wrote. In his letter he verifies basically what I said in the beginning - that TWA wasn't broke. Assuming he gives me permission I'll post it here for you to read.

Quote:
To answer your comment about why AA would want to get TWA in a prepackaged deal vs. waiting for bankruptcy and picking up the pieces, I would assume they would not want to risk loss of control of the deal, hence the pre-packaged agreement. And I read that ticket deal was costing TWA an estimated 100M - 150M annually. Now there is some stealing right there!
"Loss of control" of WHAT deal? Oh, you mean the one that would double their size and route structure and give them the newest fleet in the industry at that time while eliminating a competitor who wouldn't die and, in fact, was making a comeback and putting a huge dent in their operation? Yes, the Karabu agreement was a bit of a drag on TWA's finances. But there were only 18 monts left before the deal expired and TWA was staying current in spite of the drag. What that means is that in less than 2 years TWA would become 100M to 150M profitable overnight and become a very serious competitor to American. Management at AMR simply would not suffer that kind of competition and moved to eliminate it before things got seriously out of hand. The ONLY sure way they had of making sure TWA didn't go to someone else and remain a dangerous competitor was to make double damn sure THEY were the ones who got it. Hence, their reason for upping their ante in BK court against Jay Alix/Boeing.

As to the "stealing"....My head will probably end up on a pike for saying this publically but, Carl Icahn for all that he was or wasn't, to my knowledge never did anything illegal . He's a master of the game, and I don't like him or what he does any more than anyone else. But the blame for the Karabu agreement lies squarely with TWA management for making a deal with the devil in the first place. Karabu was the price of getting him to walk away. And, in my humble opinion, was the best money TWA ever spent.

Quote:
I am not disputing that ALPA did something wrong. They were found guilty by a jury- there's not much more to say about that. When will financial damages be determined?
It's a "bifurcated" trial. First a trial to determine guilt....done. Next a trial to determine damages. Six months to a year would be a fair guess.
All Nighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertising above will not show if you are a registered user.
Old 08-23-2011, 07:33 PM   #172 (permalink)
Gets Weekends Off
 
X Rated's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD80
Posts: 394
Default

Here's your transcript. Enjoy.

Realize that court reporters can be as accurate as an iPhone's word recognition.
X Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 01:05 AM   #173 (permalink)
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by X Rated View Post
Here's your transcript. Enjoy.

Realize that court reporters can be as accurate as an iPhone's word recognition.
Thanks for posting that. It should be an interesting read.
globalexpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 09:34 AM   #174 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,083
Default

This will go on for years........
johnso29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 05:10 AM   #175 (permalink)
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: MD80
Posts: 9
Default

Global,

Referencing our discussion awhile back where you asked how I had knowledge that TWA's 3rd and final BK was contrived to grease the path for AA.

Sorry for the delay in posting this. It took me a while to get permission from the author. Then life intruded. Sorry for the formatting, but I'm a pilot not a computer geek.


July 26, 2011
Captain Lee Moak, President
Air Line Pilots Association, International
1625 Massachusetts Ave NW #800
Washington D.C., DC 20036-2242
Certified Mail – Return Receipt Requested
Dear Captain Moak,
This is the second time since my retirement from TWA that I am compelled to write to the president of the Air Line
Pilots Association. The first, in 2007, was to correct misinformation that Captain Prater was disseminating about
the lawsuit that the TWA pilots had filed against ALPA. This one is intended to correct misinformation that ALPA
continues to distribute – especially in light of the JetBlue pilot organizing effort.
At the conclusion of the TWA Pilots’ lawsuit and a jury verdict of guilty, ALPA published a “FastRead” which stated
the following:
“Update on Brady vs. ALPA litigation
The Air Line Pilots Association, Int'I, will pursue all available legal remedies to overturn yesterday's jury
decision in the Brady VS. ALPA case arising from American Airlines' acquisition of Trans World Airlines
more than ten years ago. We believe that there are still major issues to be decided in court, including
whether the jury verdict can stand under the facts and the law.
The basic claim in the case, made by some Trans World Airlines' pilots, has been that the Air Line Pilots
Association, Int'I, violated its representation duty during the period that Trans World Airlines was threatened
with liquidation and American was proposing to buy its assets. The Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l,
believes that it fully supported the Trans World Airlines' pilots as they made the tough decisions required to
secure jobs with American Airlines in the wake of Trans World Airlines' third bankruptcy, which occurred in
2001.
At this point, there have been no remedies imposed in the Trans World Airlines' case, with numerous
issues still to be decided in the courts before any question of remedies would arise in another trial.”
I will address this propaganda first and then turn to the letter that you sent to the JetBlue pilots.
This lawsuit began in 2002. It is equally true that the case was initially dismissed. That judgment resulted in the
TWA pilots filing an appeal in the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. As you can probably guess,
that appeal took some time to work its way through the system. The result was that, in spite of ALPA’s objections,
we won the appeal and were permitted to move forward against ALPA.
From that point in 2004, ALPA used every legal delay tactic known to man, including a motion for Summary
Judgment. As you are most probably aware, Summary Judgment is based upon a motion by one of the parties
(ALPA) that contends that all necessary factual issues are settled or are so one-sided they need not be tried. The
motion is supported by declarations under oath, excerpts from depositions which are under oath, admissions of fact
and other discovery, as well as legal argument (points and authorities), that argue that there are no triable issues of
fact and that the settled facts require a Summary Judgment for the moving (ALPA) party. ALPA lost that motion
and we were then allowed to proceed to trial.
July 26, 2011
Captain Lee Moak, President
Air Line Pilots Association, International
Page 2
That still did not deter ALPA from filing other motions to deny our justice and further delay the case. Finally, all
legal schemes being exhausted, we went to trial on June 6, 2011 and a verdict handed down on July 13, 2011 after
20 days of testimony and only seven hours of deliberation by the jury.
Let us settle, here and now, once and for all, the statement that the lawsuit was filed “by some Trans World Airlines'
pilots…(emphasis mine)” The fact is, this was a class action lawsuit with the class being certified by a court (over
ALPA’s objections) and consisted of every TWA pilot on the seniority list in 2001 – some 2300 pilots. Because the
law requires that the entire Class be contacted during the proceedings, our attorneys sent out the requisite forms to
each and every TWA pilot asking if they wished to remain part of the Class or opt out. Five chose to opt out. One
of them testified on behalf of ALPA at the trial. So please do not obfuscate the situation by saying “some” TWA
pilots.
The trial was heard by a jury of 12 men and women who heard the evidence from both sides. From our side we
presented TWA’s Local Executive Council representatives, the former merger committee chairman and members of
our negotiating committee, among others. For your part, you presented former ALPA President Duane Woerth,
now a United States Presidential appointee as Ambassador to the International Civil Aviation Organization. Also
testifying was former ALPA President Randy Babbitt and now a Presidential appointee as Federal Aviation
Administration Administrator. In addition, the ALPA MEC legal counsel, ALPA in-house counsel and bankruptcy
counsel from Cohen Weiss and Simon testified against the TWA pilots. That’s a pretty powerful group from your
side.
In the end, the jury found unanimously for the TWA pilots. Justice was served - but it is quite an embarrassment to
the Air Line Pilots Association – a union formed by TWA pilots in 1931 and awarded the distinction of Councils 2, 3
and 4.
Now let us proceed in clearing up the issue of TWA’s third bankruptcy, as both the FastRead and JetBlue letter
contain references to it. Here I speak from a position of authority as I was the pilots’ representative to the TWA
Board of Directors. That bankruptcy was a requirement of the Asset Purchase Agreement. From that agreement:
“WHEREAS, TWA intends to file, and to cause each of the other Chapter 11 Sellers (as defined in
Exhibit A) to file, voluntary petitions for reorganization pursuant to chapter 11 of title 11 of the United States
Code, 11 U.S.C. Sections 101 et seq. (the “Bankruptcy Code”)…” (emphasis mine).
The reason for this requirement was for American Airlines to not have to inherit the onerous Karabu Agreement
with Carl Icahn. And while bankruptcy previously had the stigma of a firm in poor financial health, it no longer is; it
is simply another business tool as you probably learned during the UAL and DAL bankruptcies.
TWA was NOT faced with “liquidation.” Period
Finally, the FastRead contends that “ALPA believes that it fully supported the TWA pilots….” While you and others
within ALPA may believe that, the jury did not. Indeed, it was ALPA’s failure to fund and provide leverage for the
TWA pilots that led to the verdict.
Now let us turn to the JetBlue pilot letter sent under your name. Once again you begin with the myth “Some former
Trans World Airlines pilots…” Hopefully the aforementioned facts cleared the air with regard to that matter.
Let us tackle the Seham Report mentioned in the JetBlue letter. That report was bought and paid for by the TWA
pilots to get a second and independent opinion of our position. It has been on our Website for several years. While
it is true that the judge disallowed it for presentation in court – it was not for the reasons that you insinuate. The
real reason was the judge in the case did not believe that we needed an outsider to present ALPA’s failure to
represent and that our Master Executive Council representatives were to be considered the experts from our side.
July 26, 2011
Captain Lee Moak, President
Air Line Pilots Association, International
Page 3
“Experts” were disallowed from both sides. That said, the Seham report is an excellent account of ALPA’s
behavior. An even better account will be the trial transcript. That too, will be posted on our Website.
Not mentioned is the fact that all of TWA’s MEC’s records, which ALPA had custody of after our decertification by
the National Mediation Board, were destroyed and the hard drives of Captain’s Woerth and Mugerdichian (the then
ALPA Vice President of Administration, as well as every other ALPA material witness in this case, were wiped clean
during the trial discovery phase.
I will agree with one statement in your missive:
“So while rumors circulate about the amount of possible damages in the case, those rumors are
speculation and unsupported by any facts or evidence in the case. In other words, there is a long way to go
before there are final results on liability or damages.”
You are correct that there will be another trial. The result of the inaction by ALPA will be brought forth to another
jury where the evidence of over a thousand pilots being stapled to the American Airlines Seniority List which
resulted in Captains being reduced to First Officers and over a thousand TWA pilots used as furlough fodder,
including many Captains. It was an attempt by ALPA to lure 10,000 plus AA pilots back into the ALPA fold at the
expense of a charter member of the Air Line Pilots Association.
You ended your JetBlue letter with, “I urge you to continue to ask questions, get the facts, and carefully analyze the
risks of each course of action rather than trade in rumor, rhetoric, and speculation.” Bravo! Sage advice. May I
suggest that you follow your own recommendation.
From a personal perspective, I was a loyal volunteer within the ALPA organization for 34 years. It hurts me deeply
to not only write this letter, but to have look back at ALPA’s abandonment of the TWA pilots - one of its founding
airlines which holds a prominent place in Flying the Line.
On behalf of the 2300 Trans World Airlines pilots, from Council’s 2, 3 and 4:
Respectfully,
Robert A. Pastore
Captain, TWA (ret.)
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council
Former member, Trans World Airlines Board of Directors
All Nighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2012, 07:05 PM   #176 (permalink)
Gets Weekends Off
 
X Rated's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD80
Posts: 394
Default

Just to emphasize the key part of the above post, at least in the context of the poster:

Now let us proceed in clearing up the issue of TWA’s third bankruptcy, as both the FastRead and JetBlue letter
contain references to it. Here I speak from a position of authority as I was the pilots’ representative to the TWA
Board of Directors. That bankruptcy was a requirement of the Asset Purchase Agreement. From that agreement:
“WHEREAS, TWA intends to file, and to cause each of the other Chapter 11 Sellers (as defined in
Exhibit A) to file, voluntary petitions for reorganization pursuant to chapter 11 of title 11 of the United States
Code, 11 U.S.C. Sections 101 et seq. (the “Bankruptcy Code”)…”
(emphasis mine).
The reason for this requirement was for American Airlines to not have to inherit the onerous Karabu Agreement
with Carl Icahn.
And while bankruptcy previously had the stigma of a firm in poor financial health, it no longer is; it
is simply another business tool as you probably learned during the UAL and DAL bankruptcies.
TWA was NOT faced with “liquidation.” Period
X Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 04:26 PM   #177 (permalink)
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: MD80
Posts: 9
Default

Like I said in my first post on this string..... "I hear this crap all the time...that TWA was in bankruptcy and would have been out of business. That's pure BS."
All Nighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 04:09 AM   #178 (permalink)
Gets Weekends Off
 
Karnak's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 262
Default

Yes, TWA was a thriving, vibrant, and profitable airline! They were expanding, had plans to hire, buy AMR, NWA, and DAL - then open the first pilot base on the moon.

Their MEC reps weren't peeing down both pant legs. They were pure Chuck Norris, ready to roundhouse kick those APA guys to the curb.

Yeah...that's it!
Karnak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:52 AM   #179 (permalink)
Gets Weekends Off
 
X Rated's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD80
Posts: 394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karnak View Post
Yes, TWA was a thriving, vibrant, and profitable airline! They were expanding, had plans to hire, buy AMR, NWA, and DAL - then open the first pilot base on the moon.

Their MEC reps weren't peeing down both pant legs. They were pure Chuck Norris, ready to roundhouse kick those APA guys to the curb.

Yeah...that's it!
And your point is.......?
X Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2012, 05:00 PM   #180 (permalink)
Back on TDY
 
Carl Spackler's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 10,291
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by X Rated View Post
And your point is.......?
Karnak is typical of the ALPA communications team. Ridicule people for something they never said. Then pat themselves on the back for their geinus. All while on full flight pay loss...of course.

Carl
__________________
I'm an airline pilot - so I got that goin for me....which is nice.
Carl Spackler is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 

 
Reply
 



« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Airways Appeal GW258 Mergers and Acquisitions 270 09-30-2012 07:48 AM
Another News Ariticle Ref Eagle's Shortage (Printed 09-01-07) Lbell911 Regional 23 04-22-2012 10:33 AM
"The Pinnacle pilots want your flying" usmc-sgt Regional 44 03-11-2012 02:04 PM
Local357 EXCO response to the RPC(FAPA!!) SF340guy Union Talk 92 06-12-2011 06:30 PM
ALPA is courting my Airline Boogie Nights Union Talk 22 04-14-2009 09:10 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:45 AM.


vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2012 Internet Brands, Inc.