Biggie

Sorry; but, it's more complicated than saying "failed to make a profit"! Supposedly, TWA didn't make a profit after 3 BKs in fifteen years (please get your facts correct - Icahns Bk was in '86 and the last BK in '01).

Wow, how does a company not make a profit for fifteen years, stay in business, buy B-757's (when all the other aircraft were leased) starting in '96, give payraises in '99, start codeshare with American Eagle out of LAX in 2000 (codeshare with your competitors' Regional feed???), enter negotiations with Boeing for loans in 2000 (Boeing was willing to loan TWA money, based on concessions from the IAM) and have $1 Bill. in cash deposits ($500 mill in fuel deps, $300 mill with AMEX and $200 mill with MasterCard (for ticket sales)) upon entering the last BK???!!! The second BK, in '95 ended up in reverse 3 to 1 stock split (?); that took an employee owned company and gave to the leasing companies (three top guys ended up with 3 million shares of stock, that went from $4 to $24. They immediately left and the new CEO "temporarily" left his aircraft leasing company, to run TWA).

TWA was a fun place to work at, as we were on the bottom. Maybe we should have gone other places; but, there was always hope on the horizon. Even in 2000, the company paid every employee two days pay, to attend "re-branding training". The intent of which, was to create a new product like BMW/Harley-Davidson; that someone would be interested in buying or merging with. My question at the time was; if we could re-brand and make a "new product", why did we need to merge/get bought out. This probably would have been the best indication that Management didn't want to run the company (Bill Compton was sharp; but, still a Line Pilot in essence. much like Horton he either couldn't or didn't want to run an Airline).

Before the final BK, nearly everyone was in a concentration camp mentality. Personally, I felt it was BS and that Management was manipulating assets; to make things look worse than they were. They didn't want Employees or creditors, getting in the way.

During the 2001 BK, AMR initially offered $400 mil. Within days, Icahn offered $400 mil. The BK judge told him to shut up and sit down. AMR then upped its' offer to $1 bil, plus $500 mill in medical/travel benefits for TWA retirees.

My question to johnso29 and any others that join the bandwagon and "say" TWA was on the ropes - why didn't AMR just wait and buy the assets after a Chp 7 (why spent $1.5 bil on a company, that was going out of business at any time?)? Would Carty and Compton have walked away with their big bonuses, for having done the deal? Would AMR, have become the "biggest" airline? Would AMR Board members/Upper Management have walked away with their high valued stock (I seem to recall, the stock going from $4 a share to $22 (?))?

ALPA was paid to represent us. Everyone knew AMR wasn't going to walk away from buying TWA; except, the TWA employees!

The last point. There were ten - fifteen TWA pilots/FAs, at breakfast in San Juan, Puerto Rico. We were discussing our negotiations, regarding giving up SCOPE and the potential of getting stapled. I commented, that "we shouldn't give up our SCOPE and "walk" if we had too. That AMR wasn't going to walk out on buying TWA". The TWA Captain, who had about 1 - 2 years left till retirement, yelled at me and said, "that this was the best deal, I was going to get". I immediately said, "if the economy turns (this was after 9/11), I'll be on the street; while, American pilots are flying our airplanes, out of our gates and on our routes!".

Within a year, I was forced off the B767/757 at LAX flying to Kona, to the MD80 in STL. A Native AA pilot in my Guard unit (I was hired in '94, he was hired in '98), was bragging how he'd gone from 737 Domestic to flying the 757 LAX to Kona (TWA route/airplane). 6 months later, I was furloughed with three kids. Fact is, other than about 800 pilots, a few gate agents/mechanics/rampers - the rest of us were on the street!

Biggie

filejw

Well as for money and this is just a guess. 53,000,000 divided by 2300 pilots - 1/3 legal fees is 15,000.

johnso29

I think you need to double check your facts.

Biggie

You are correct. Alzheimer's kicking in. Icahn took over in '85 and BK in '92. Point was, TWA (i.e. Icahn) couldn't make money from '85 till '01? And stay in business?

Just the profits alone from the London routes, sold to AMR, paid them off within a year. TWA, until 2002, made many people wealthy - just not the employees. If it's not true, then why did Compton never come back and fly the line?

Biggie

B757200ER

You're way off base on that one. If your union, the one your pilot group helped found in the 1930's, completely sold you out in exchange for political favor or extra dues-paying members, would you then say 'it wasn't their fault'?

ALPA (Duane Worth & his henchmen, not Moak or Prater) undermined the integration between TWA & AA, subverted the entire process and not only didn't represent TWA pilots in the integration, but substantially, significantly HARMED the TWA pilots represented by ALPA.

It was unequivocally, comprehensively and indisputably ALPA's fault.

globalexpress

Sorry man. I've read everything you guys have put up on your website, including the entire transcript of the case. The only thing I'd give you guys as an outside observer is that you won the sympathy of the jury and you won the case. It also reinforced in my mind that I NEVER want a "jury of my peers" to ever determine my fate.

I wouldn't use the "unequivocally, comprehensively and indisputably ALPA's fault." When it came down to it IMO, after having read the transcript, you guys were screwed either way. You were a thrice bankrupt airline, merging with one of the "Big 3," and had incredibly unrealistic expectations. When it came down to it, you had two choices: take the deal with the APA or go in front of a bankruptcy judge and likely lose your scope under the 1113c process. ALPA provided your MEC with many resources, including finances. Not only did you have ALPA attorneys and finance guys (who, of course, were lying to you every step of the way because ALPA only cares about dues?), you ALSO had "your own guys" (attorneys and finance guys) of your choosing to guide you through the process. Your MEC had all the information they needed to make decisions, made some decisions, didn't like the outcome of those choices, then sued. If you had chosen to "take it the judge," lost your scope, and then been forced into a worse deal with the APA, you guys would have sued ALPA anyway. There's no doubt in my mind of that fact.

I am also *SHOCKED* that you guys settled for so small an amount, considering, of course, how everything was "unequivocally, comprehensively and indisputably ALPA's fault." It makes me wonder how confident your attorneys were in trying to get much more considering the merits of your case?

Anyway, glad it's over and ALPA pilots only had to pay such a small amount.

johnso29

I'll state the facts again.

-THREE bankruptcies in 10 years.

Cooked books or no cooked books, TWA was a financial train wreck. Please explain to me what leverage the TWA MEC had for this integration.

Packrat

Don't confuse them with facts. Their alternate reality won't allow that. If it did, their heads would explode.

astroglider

Let's review:

1. American Airlines,/AMR corporation purchased the assets of TWA in April of 2001, THIS WASN'T A MERGER! TWA employees were offered jobs at American, an offer American Airlines did not have to make.

2. TWA declared bankruptcy in January 10, 2001...so this had NOTHING to do with 9/11! TWA hadn't made money in ANY quarter for over 13 years! TWA had also declared bankruptcy in 1992 and 1995. TWA was a money loser, for many years and many reasons.

3. The local TWA ALPA and ALPA national did the best they could negotiating from an extremely weak bargaining position. AMR had every right to take a "take-it-or-leave-it" approach. They didn't owe TWA anything. TWA employees are lucky for the consideration they received. The only other alternative was Chapter 7 bankruptcy, and then all TWA employees would have been out of work.

4. The biggest TWA complainers, the number one being the gentleman interviewed all over the internet for this case,was hired during the final few years of TWA's existence and would have held a junior position or worse furloughed at any other airline. This junior employee and others sought employment at TWA knowing the airline was teetering on the brink of collapse. It was a gamble to work there. The only reason TWA was doing any hiring in those final years was due to attrition of employees "jumping ship" to healthier airlines. Yet he still feels ALPA, TWA and American owe him something.

5. What killed TWA was Carl Ichan, not ALPA, 9/11 or the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978.

6. I have listened to former TWA employees complain about this for years! With every passing year the facts of this case have become more and more embellished. Bottom line, look at the state TWA was in during the 1990's. They were closing their doors for good in January 2001, when AMR decided to snap up the assets. The rest of their story is all BS.

7. Where do the former TWA pilots think this money is coming from? American Airlines pilots, the TWA/ALPA? No. Half the money comes from insurance, the other half comes from the dues money collected over the last decade from ALPA pilots at other airlines that have had nothing to do with this case. So the former TWA pilots are penalizing the pilot groups of United, Delta, FedEx, Alaska and a dozen or so regional airlines. The TWA pilot group has no become the pariahs of the airline industry. What a bunch of whiners!

eaglefly

As a former ALPA pilot, I'd rather my old dues money extorted from me by the corrupt and worthless ALPA be given to TWA pilots then kept by ALPA.