Notices
Union Talk For macro-level discussion: legislation, national unions, organizing pilot groups, etc.
For airline-specific discussion, use relevant forum above.

National Seniority List

Old 10-22-2006, 12:19 AM
  #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
robthree's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 777, sofa
Posts: 1,183
Default National Seniority List

Ladies and Gentelmen,

I'd like to get your thoughts on this idea. I recently read on the ALPA board a persuesive argument for it by a US Airways pilot. I'd also like to get your feedback on some thoughts I've had about it.

First off, I like the idea. It strikes me as a potentially powerfull tool to stop the race to the bottom.

I think the NSL should be based on your DOH at any 121 carrier. This allows APA, SWAPA, otherwise affiliated and unafiliated pilots to get on board. I think that 100% endorsement of the NSL by 121 pilot groups is essential, even if they are not ALPA represented.

I think it should be a Longevity List. That is if you move from one airline to another, you keep your pay and vacation, but go to the bottom of the list for bidding and upgrades. You don't want to get bumped out of your position when a new guy joins your company, but we need Career Portability, just like everyone we know in the 'real world'.

I think it should be a Preferential Hire List. When a carrier has an opening they must interview unemployed pilots from the top of the list. If they do not hire the most senior pilot, they must compensate that pilot X amount (10-25% salery?) Until that pilot is hired or declines an offer from any carrier. A pilot would be able to decline any offer for any reason, but then would lose the compensation if they were recieving it. Once all pilots on the list were hired, compensated, or declined an offer, then the carrier could hire from off the list.

I think as part of the NSL there needs to be a National Pay Scale. The Scale should be relativly flat, and should be cost neutral to the leading contracts. As a starting point say $1.00/hr per seat or 1,000 lbs MTOW. Plus 10%-25% for PIC, minus 10% for first year pay, minus 15% for first year pay for off the list pilots. Plus a nominal longevity bump. There probably needs to be an adjustment at both the B-747 and b1900 end of this proposal, but I think in the middle its a good start. The flatness of the scale helps promote Career Portability, and coupled with its proportionality it becomes a disincentive to farm out flying to "Regionals" using 90 seat jets to go half way across the continent.

The proposal I saw called for a pension plan and health care to be provided by ALPA. I'm not sure if that is a good idea or not. While ALPA is more inclined to protect our intrests then a company, it may prove to be a great liability to the group. Ideas anyone?

SCOPE. No codeshare JET flying by non-NSL carriers.


WHY?

Why do we want a NSL?

I think it would end the undercutting that's been going on in the industry for the last few years. Regionals have grown at the expense of Mainline. Now Regionals are underbiding each other and taking paycuts to get more flying.
It would free us from the Indentured Servitude we all suffer from. It simply costs too much to jump ship once you're on board with a Major, and to a leser extent from one Regional to another. A flater scale would allow you to leave before the ship has sunk. But maintaining company Seniority for bidding would promote stability.


Why would Airlines want a NSL?

First of all, if its close to cost neutral they probably won't care about anything else.

It would allow the "best" companies to attract the "best" pilots. The companies that have the best reputation will attract an inordinate number of applicants, (as SWA, FDX, and UPS are today) and they will be able to select the ones who are the best organizational fit.

It will even the playing field. Airlines can not (or will not) compete on price. Why should they compete on cost? There will be resistance at the low end, certainly. But the high end will see the advantage of equal labor costs.

It may allow them to get out of the pension & health care plan business.



Thanks for your thoughts,
Rob

Last edited by robthree; 10-22-2006 at 12:22 AM. Reason: clarity
robthree is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 01:08 AM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
fatmike69's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: EMB120 CA
Posts: 299
Default

So why don't we just mandate that every airline merge into one company then? I don't get it: one master seniority list where everyone gets paid the same amount, no company competes with the other on price, and each company is forced to hire pilots from other companies before they can hire outside? And in what other "real world job" are you gaurunteed your pay if you make a move? Are you speaking of "pay comensurate with experience"? While true the airlines don't have this, this is by no means a gauruntee of any sort of compensation in other "real world jobs".

This idea basically goes completely against a "free enterprise society". In order to make something like this work, much of the rules of our country's current "business model" would have to be re-written, not to mention much government intervention. This undercutting you speak of is not just occuring in the airline industry. I was a software engineer for years, before my job was outsourced to India where someone was willing to do my job for much cheaper than I was. And we didn't even have a seniority list, management was basically allowed to axe whoever they wished which (suprise suprise) turned out to be those who had been there the longest and were the highest paid.
fatmike69 is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 01:29 AM
  #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Old Coastie's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: DC-10 S/O, forever.
Posts: 116
Default

Wow! What an easy, low key thread starter like.....age 60.
I don't think it's do-able because the guys at FDX, UPS, SWA are not willing to give up their benefits and pay for the sake of someone at another airline that's in wobbly condition. And really the pay/benefits issue is about how well an airline is MANAGED. If the leaders at UAL, DAL and NWA (to say nothing of EAL,TWA, PA) hadn't made bad mistakes then those airlines would be in better shape and so would the pilots. And how would airline in chapter 11 afford to pay the national rates? Mgt would plead federally recognized poverty and the situation would be the same as it is today. I agree that a preferential hire list should be a strong, but not the only, factor in the hiring process. Transferring would be another sticky situation. There certainly would be considerable rancor if the transferree is getting more pay and vacation for a particular seat and yet is considered a "newbie". Is the transferree on probation for his first year with the new carrier? Good luck with this but I don't think it's going to fly.
Old Coastie is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 07:09 AM
  #4  
Line Holder
 
stamps's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Airbus FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 71
Default

From a management perspective, every airline is different costwise, even with common equipment. Two airlines negotiate different costs for the same airplane. Why would managers give up their ability to do that with labor? I'm not saying I don't favor more unity in the pilot profession (before I get flamed). But from a business perspective, a national list is a nonstarter.
stamps is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 07:32 AM
  #5  
China Visa Applicant
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: IPZ to Mr.
Posts: 1,915
Default

Would there still be a benefit to a National Seniority List if it were not tied directly to a wage structure?
Hacker15e is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 10:18 AM
  #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Space Monkey's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Red Tail CRJ CA
Posts: 262
Default

Also what do you do with airlines that aren't represented by ALPA... ie CHQ, WO ect..... (do you plan on forcing them out of teamsters and into alpa somehow?) and on a side note which date do you use for seniority... The first time some one was hired on to an airline or their most recent date... Ie if some worked for ACA back in the day an now flys for SWA or something.... do you use their ACA doh or their SWA doh for seniority???? food for thought
Space Monkey is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 10:21 AM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Space Monkey's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Red Tail CRJ CA
Posts: 262
Default

Also good luck dealing with the teamsters on that one.... I think history shows that group to be a little on the violent side.....
Space Monkey is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 12:24 PM
  #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
ryane946's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
Default

It will never happen! Never ever. Good idea though.
ryane946 is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 12:35 PM
  #9  
Thx Age 65
 
HoursHore's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: MD11CAP
Posts: 1,041
Default

You think a Company like FedEx would hire a 12 year USAir Furloee if they had to pay him at the 12 year scale and give them 25 days of vacation? According to your plan, they might have to interview them, but hey sure as hell wouldn't hire them.

This plan, like most socialist endeavours, has good intentions but in reality would suppress wages to the absolute minimum they could go.
HoursHore is offline  
Old 10-22-2006, 12:42 PM
  #10  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: ERJ-145 CA
Posts: 3
Default

" I recently read on the ALPA board a persuesive argument for it by a US Airways pilot."

What's the DOH of the most junior US Air guy again?
Xenu is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
HSLD
Major
224
07-18-2007 11:24 AM
Myboyblue
Cargo
7
08-21-2006 08:02 AM
nightrider
Cargo
1
08-17-2006 04:40 PM
ryane946
Major
47
03-26-2006 09:00 AM
Diesel 10
Cargo
4
03-12-2006 07:33 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices