SuperConductor

I find it rather interesting that Roger Cohen (President RAA) didn't mention in Frontline - Flying Cheap, that a big reason first and second year FO's are paid so little is because the unions parse the pay-scales up that way. Huge disparities. Am I wrong about that? I read the book Air Transport Labor Relations (1997) and it would appear that is true.

galaxy flyer

That's what unions and seniority systems are supposed to do. Study monopoly power in a basic economic text and read "Flying the Line" by George Hopkins.

GF

SuperConductor

I seriously don't think that was Behncke's vision, by any means. You seem quite cavalier about financial imbalance creating extreme hardship? Considering the state of the US airline pilot occupation these days, I certainly don't hope senior pilots think they can pull the "putting in your dues" wool over new hires eyes much longer. There simply aren't the rewards remaining any longer that would warrant such protocol.

I read Flying the Line: Vol II. It seemed quite the apologists manifesto for the recent lackings of said union. Despite their cleverly written forwards, I don't believe the books are written from an academically NPOV (Neutral Point of View).

galaxy flyer

The "hardships" are exactly th current generation's version of "B" scale, just ALPA managed to "outsource" it. I disagree with th "outsourcing" term, they are ALPA pilots, flying FAR 121 planes; it's not as if DL hired non-union Indians to fly Soviet-era planes. RJs are flown by Americans, holding American licenses, under American management, at American-owned airlines. If that is outsourcing what is GM's cars built in South Korea?

GF

SuperConductor

I think the word out-sourcing has gone through a number of lingo changes. Originally, I'm pretty sure it meant simply moving a production element to a company outside your own. Contracting it out. In the late 90's and new millennium it seems to have been adulterated into the term we most understand it as today; moving production "off-shore". It looks as if the airline industry is using it in its correct term these days.


Now, back to your statement about "that's what they are supposed to do." I really don't think there are any specific words in "Flying the Line, Vol I" that says. "Airline pilot unions are here to create disparaging differences between pay of most senior and most junior pilots. Differences so great that new hires have to move home and apply for food-stamps, sleep on bed-bug-ridden beds in crash-pads with 8 other guys and never-ever go on a real vacation. Differences so great that they have to commute across the country and become unsafe with fatigue so as it raises questions as to the safety of their operating equipment." No. I don't think it says that anywhere.

Where I do see a circular cycle is in the fact that the senior pilots had to put up with ultra-low pay when they were new-hires and now that they are senior pilots, finally able to live in the black, dropping their pay wouldn't allow them to catch up for the years living in the red as a relative new-hire. Changing the pay-scales on them could be seen as a little unfair, so the viscous cycle continues indefinitely. There's never an opportunity to correct the problem. But, we all know that the 60/65 retirement age change created a situation wherein the only people who gained from it were senior pilots already making well over 6 figures. The low guys were stuck in the right seat, or even CFI'ing for peanuts for the 5 years that had to lapse.

RJSAviator76

Union questions answered:

Do you have a pen? - YouTube

SuperConductor

LoL!! Was that from Police Academy or something like that? Looks like about 1982 or 3.

amcflyboy

Nope...Armed and Dangerous and it was around 1987, when John Candy and Eugene Levy left SCTV a couple of years prior.

And oh yeah...Meg Ryan was hot in this movie!