ATCsaidDoWhat

No...YOU don't understand the issue. The issue is about a union not honoring it's responsibility to protect the pilots that are working under the CBA. It's about a union and it's representatives hoping into bed with a failed management in front of a bankruptcy judge and violating the rights of it's members and not providing their Duty of Fair Representation.

It's about another failed hedge fund who went in, bought a couple of airlines, gutted one and left it loaded with debt. And when their pilots and F/A's had nothing else to give and the "management team" couldn't produce a business plan...shut down after 66 years of history, leaving those people on the street with nothing.

It's about the same management team and a hedge fund run by a clown who famously couldn't spell "potato" without and "e" who drained the cash from the place and then shut down the other airline...and then went to ALPA and got them to agree to let pilots fly out of seniority so they could put a few more coins in their pockets. And sending those crews out to fly with no health or life insurance...but you can bet your keister they had insurance on the planes that would pay them handsomely if something happened.

I don't give a rip snort about their "mission." There are other carriers with crews who have clearances who can do the flying. She's pumping mud...shut it down.

What YOU need to get over is that this isn't Uncle Sam's Flying Club. The ONLY "mission" here is to arrive back at your home in a vertical position under your own power. The "gotta fly the mission no matter what" mindset has done as much to weaken the profession as have names like Lorenzo, Icahn, Cord, Ferris and the like.

Don't preach to us about the "issue." We've walked the mile, the picket line and the unemployment lines. We did it so YOU could have a CAREER. Time for you to cage the gyro's and stand up for the profession and not the "mission" or management.

Packrat

Do you even know the mission? If not, I suggest you don't have a clue what the issue is. I know the mission. I've worked with these guys back in my military days. Security is job ONE. They don't give a hoot about your seniority. The fact of the matter here is that the situation that has your collective panties in a wad isn't even resolved yet.

Perhaps you all should have taken a chill pill and kept your yaps shut until the dust settled. But, better to show yourselves up than maybe send a PM and find out really what the story is.

Nah. That would be too logical. It feels better just to scream out your indignation to an anonymous web board.

ATCsaidDoWhat

The fact is that Cerberus wants the money. Period. So Mr. Potato(e) head and his buddies can line their pockets. If they had shut the doors completely, Uncle would have found a way to fly the "mission." This is about money for a hedge fund and a union that turned their back. I don't expect you to get the second part.

Or, based on your excuses, the first.

Packrat

Again, you show you don't understand the mission. Of course, the hedge fund doesn't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. But the bottom line is the mission requires the security clearance and if you don't have it, you don't have a job.

Try to get on with URS, Dynamic or L3 without one. Then get back to us.

ATCsaidDoWhat

This is a circular discussion. URS, Dynamic and L3 are not represented by unions. North American is...well was SUPPOSED to be.

You've made it clear that all you care about is the "mission." There are more than a few of us who care more about doing what's right when you take peoples money to represent them. Your refusal to grasp that concept makes it pretty clear that you are destined for, or actively seeking to be part of management.

You'll do well. The rest of us will fight for the profession.

shrtaprch

Which one of you guys has the letter that shows that ALPA has endorsed the companies furloughing out of seniority?

If you missed it, the Union must fight with management with one hand tied behind its back because of a thing called the RLA! It says you must fight these battles through Grievance and Arbitration.

The Union has filed those Grievances requesting seniority be honored, pay for pilots unjustly furloughed, and all monies owed for pilots furloughed including cancellation of health benefits.

Now what?

Packrat

The problem is this whole thread is based on a premise that isn't factual. The ALPA haters have gone off on something that hasn't even been finally decided yet. It looks like (according to my info) that seniority will be honored. Until the final decision is made, this whole thread is an exercise in futility.

But the ALPA haters will always chirp even if events in the long term prove they have a severe case of cranial rectal inversion.

jonnyjetprop

Flying out of seniority is a major dispute, as defined by the RLA. ALPA could seek a federal injunction to stop it. Minor disputes are handled by the grievance process.

ATCsaidDoWhat

Really? Tell ya what. Call Mass. Avenue and see if you can get a hold of Lee. Ask him if he knew that Betty and Bruce had agreed to out of seniority flying with his permission or knowledge.

And remind him that even bankruptcy courts have transcripts...

Go ahead. We'll wait.

ATCsaidDoWhat

You joined in 2007? And just FOUR posts???? You're one heck of a lurker...or...

The RLA has nothing to do with ALPA attorneys going into Bankruptcy court and AGREEING to let something happen. In case you haven't read your history, bankruptcy judges have wide latitude and have trashed airline (RLA) based contracts at will since the Reagan era. If they didn't have that ability, Lorenzo wouldn't have been able to trash EAL and fly their pilots out of seniority. UAL wouldn't have been able to keep letting scabs fly out of seniority.

In bankruptcy, the debtor files first orders with the court allowing them to break agreements, defer payments and the like. The union can only file a claim as a secured or unsecured creditor, and unless the grievances are filed prior to the bankruptcy and have an attached monetary value, they join the class of unsecured debtors, who get nothing or next to it.

A seniority claim is so far down the unsecured list it has less value than Texas Air stock.

Cerberus owes millions in unfunded retirement, insurance and other payments to pilots of NAA and World. Funny how they managed to "sweep" the airlines accounts for several million that went into their pockets instead of insurance and retirement payments just prior to the filing...to pay themselves back. And with NAA, the ONLY reason they want to do that flying is to get access to more money. The "mission" doesn't mean poo.

Something that some people just don't get.