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Just wondering about scabs . . .

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Just wondering about scabs . . .

Old 08-18-2014, 07:59 PM
  #131  
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My plan is not to be one of the ones thinking I still have to shop at the company store. Unions had their place once upon a time. But they have been corrupted to the bone.
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:41 AM
  #132  
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One benefit the airlines do not want you to know about is the Retirement Income Assurance Policy! If you lose your First Class Medical License, you can no longer contribute to your 401k. The RIAP will make the contributions into an annuity and you can retire at 65 with dignity! The major airlines are keeping this hush hush! Google it.. demand for the RIAP to save your retirement!!!
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Old 02-02-2015, 02:58 PM
  #133  
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As a member of ALPA there was a time when I bought into this nonsense. It was only for a very short time and now I'm older and wiser I think anyone who has the courage to stand up and try to break the union is a hero.

Back then it was different, ALPA was different and the airlines were different. The problems we have today are very different and the union seems more of the cause than the cure. Looking back I'm thinking if the unions had been broken back then the industry would be better off today. The unions built the regional airline monstrosity we have today or they at least enabled it to be built.

A lot of you old timers sitting at the top of your seniority lists will certainly disagree but that's only because it's all you know. There are many other old timers who's seniority list crumbled below them and will understand but likely they're not on these forums because they have moved on in life, left behind by the very system they believed would protect them.

As far as forgiveness...whats to forgive now? That was a long time ago in a different reality. People who hold on are living in the past.

It's just a job and we should focus on that rather than this outdated notion that unions are their to protect us. As always... Follow the money if you want the truth.
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Old 02-05-2015, 01:55 PM
  #134  
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Wow, you're a piece of work..... serious or troll?

Originally Posted by NineGturn View Post
I think anyone who has the courage to stand up and try to break the union is a hero.
BS flag #1. Generally a measure of one’s courage and heroics has to do with willingly taking on personal risk and sacrifice. I’m not seeing either one of those things when I look at a spineless, selfish scumbag who simply goes to work while his fellow pilots risk their livelihood and give up income in an attempt to better their circumstances (and those of the scab). Point of order – a scab doesn’t “try to break the union”. That’s management’s goal. The scab is just a willing pawn in that effort.


Originally Posted by NineGturn View Post
Back then it was different, ALPA was different and the airlines were different. The problems we have today are very different and the union seems more of the cause than the cure.
I’m hardly an ALPA apologist. Our union has screwed the pooch on some pretty big issues, IMO. However, I tend to characterize it as a necessary and imperfect part of our current situation. There are some new challenges, but there are still many of the same old ones as well. What, specifically, do you think is SO different and what, specifically, is ALPA “causing”?

Originally Posted by NineGturn View Post
Looking back I'm thinking if the unions had been broken back then the industry would be better off today.
In what fantasy world do you come to this conclusion? BS flag #2. You really think that our industry would be as safe and your schedule and W-2 would look anything close to what they are today if that had been left up to the management du jour of the various airlines?

Originally Posted by NineGturn View Post
As far as forgiveness...whats to forgive now? That was a long time ago in a different reality. People who hold on are living in the past.
You don’t have to hold on to the past to learn from it. Spirit pilots went on strike so, so long ago I can barely remember. 2010, I think it was. Comair went out way, way back in 2001. You think they might be wise to remember who among their group stood by them and can be counted on in a tough situation? In my experience, scabs usually are not defined by a single bad decision in their life. There is usually a pattern. I found them to be deficient in principles, morals, CRM and just about any other skill that requires them to be part of a team effort. I want to know who is like that before I may be forced to fly an airplane with them – so I choose to remember rather than put my head in the sand.


Originally Posted by NineGturn View Post
It's just a job and we should focus on that rather than this outdated notion that unions are their to protect us.
Good thing spelling and grammar aren’t on the recurrent syllabus at your airline – I don’t think even ALPA would be able to help you keep your job.

“Just a job” – that requires unique skills and regular maintenance of those skills. Not to mention frequent evaluations of those skills as well as medical fitness for duty. It’s also “just a job” with significant level of responsibility with risk to life and livelihood in the event of error. Not quite the same as many of the “just a jobs” out there, IMO.

So,
If you happened to bust an altitude or get violated for any of the myriad of possible transgressions we might be called out on by the FAA..
If you happened to ding a wingtip taxiing out…
Land hard and fold a gear (was it defective or your fault? I’m sure the company will give you the benefit of the doubt )…
RTO and go off the end and break the jet or maybe a few people get hurt in the evac…
Bounce some folks off the ceiling of your aircraft in some unexpected CAT (seatbelt sign off)

If those or any number of other potentially disastrous career threatening events happen, I guess we can all expect you won’t be taking out that little orange card that ALPA gives us that starts with “Call this number immediately if…..” Shoot, you probably burned it already, right?

After all, what kind of protection could a scumbag union like ALPA possibly provide? They don’t do that anymore. You’ll be much better off handling it yourself – just like you would have to do in the non-union utopia you wish for if only someone had busted those damn unions back in the day. Good luck with that. Somehow I think that little card is probably still tucked away somewhere safe just in case…… right?

Last edited by Adlerdriver; 02-05-2015 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 02-05-2015, 02:51 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Wow, you're a piece of work..... serious or troll?
I'm not a troll....I have been preaching this for years, and I'd say it to your face but based on your typical insults I doubt you'd do the same. Wisdom and courage come from age.

BS flag #1. Generally a measure of one’s courage and heroics has to do with willingly taking on personal risk and sacrifice. I’m not seeing either one of those things when I look at a spineless, selfish scumbag who simply goes to work while his fellow pilots risk their livelihood and give up income in an attempt to better their circumstances (and those of the scab). Point of order – a scab doesn’t “try to break the union”. That’s management’s goal. The scab is just a willing pawn in that effort.
(kind of a PITA quoting you...please avoid using colors in your posts) Courage would be seeing past the status quo and trying something new to effect change. I'm trying to affect change here. Maybe the scabs were only trying to feed their families but from what I saw it took a lot of courage to deal with the hardcore crap dealt out by their coworkers in retaliation...I saw it first hand and up close and personal although was lucky never to be directly involved in any of it. I saw subhuman behavior from one person to another and was disgusted by it.

I’m hardly an ALPA apologist. Our union has screwed the pooch on some pretty big issues, IMO. However, I tend to characterize it as a necessary and imperfect part of our current situation. There are some new challenges, but there are still many of the same old ones as well. What, specifically, do you think is SO different and what, specifically, is ALPA “causing”?
The current calamity in our industry is the abomination of "regional airlines" which operate full size jets at old 19 seater pay scales. This calamity wasn't caused by the unions, it was enabled by it. These so called "regionals" today are massive operations compared to the relatively small "commuter airlines" that used to fly "puddle jumper" 19-30 seaters back in the days of the very subject we are talking about.

The seniority list system makes all this possible. The union concessions and scope clauses make all this possible. Without either the regional airline model would not have been possible. Management has successfully exploited the unions into a tool against the pilot profession. If the unions and seniority system had gone away, everything would be different.

In what fantasy world do you come to this conclusion? BS flag #2. You really think that our industry would be as safe and your schedule and W-2 would look anything close to what they are today if that had been left up to the management du jour of the various airlines?
My world comes from 30 years experience in a wide variety of roles in aviation including management and ALPA line captain. I have learned to open my eyes a little wider with time. The FAA regulates safety and the airlines follow it. While ALPA has a role in promoting safety and working with both the FAA and airlines it certainly isn't a game changer and has nothing to do with contracts, strikes, scabs and seniority anyway.

........ In my experience, scabs usually are not defined by a single bad decision in their life. There is usually a pattern. I found them to be deficient in principles, morals, CRM and just about any other skill that requires them to be part of a team effort....
My God! Listen to yourself! In any other context you (hopefully) would recognize this type of attitude as a serious problem.

Good thing spelling and grammar aren’t on the recurrent syllabus at your airline – I don’t think even ALPA would be able to help you keep your job.
? Really!?

“Just a job” – that requires unique skills and regular maintenance of those skills. Not to mention frequent evaluations of those skills as well as medical fitness for duty. It’s also “just a job” with significant level of responsibility with risk to life and livelihood in the event of error. Not quite the same as many of the “just a jobs” out there, IMO.
This is a rant? I never said the job doesn't require skill and experience and dedication but you are not the only one capable of doing it. The problem is the hard core union guys that believe they are entitled to the job and are more deserving to keep it than others for whatever fantasy reason they hold on to. Persecuting scabs is one of those fantasy reasons. I'll bet it would really drive you nuts to know a scab that could actually fly better than you or knew something about aviation that you didn't know....or sat to your left one day.

If you happened to bust an altitude or get violated for any of the myriad of possible transgressions we might be called out on by the FAA.. If you happened to ding a wingtip taxiing out…Land hard and fold a gear (was it defective or your fault? I’m sure the company will give you the benefit of the doubt )…RTO and go off the end and break the jet or maybe a few people get hurt in the evac…Bounce some folks off the ceiling of your aircraft in some unexpected CAT (seatbelt sign off) If those or any number of other potentially disastrous career threatening events happen, I guess we can all expect you won’t be taking out that little orange card that ALPA gives us that starts with “Call this number immediately if…..” Shoot, you probably burned it already, right? After all, what kind of protection could a scumbag union like ALPA possibly provide? They don’t do that anymore. You’ll be much better off handling it yourself – just like you would have to do in the non-union utopia you wish for if only someone had busted those damn unions back in the day. Good luck with that. Somehow I think that little card is probably still tucked away somewhere safe just in case…… right?
Again kind of a rant but I get your point. Here's the thing. These are what unions are good for and you're right in that it's good to have that number to call when you need it. There's no reason we can't have unions in the airlines without all the other baggage that goes with it. The problem is they are more harm than good to our profession. Besides, a good legal plan would probably offer better protection. On the other hand...don't do those things because if you do...probably you shouldn't be an airline pilot anyway.

Trust me in that no one loves the unions more than airline management. Without unions they wouldn't have the outsourcing regional airline monstrosity and would have no power over you as a pilot who could just up and quit and go work for someone else at equal or better pay. Airline pay is the lowest in history while other careers have passed us....so if you think your unions are protecting your pay....look again.
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Old 02-05-2015, 05:35 PM
  #136  
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A few pointed, direct comments, a little sarcasm and one joke (complete with smiley face ) about your spelling and I’m insulting you? Pretty thin skin for someone who’s been around aviation as long as you have.

I didn’t use colors – I just quoted you. Talk to the moderators if you don’t like the format of the forum. Or, don’t quote me back. Computers are hard sometimes, huh?

30 years of preaching this stuff and how’s that going? Maybe it’s time to focus your efforts somewhere a bit more realistic. Or just retire.

Calling a scab courageous because they put up with consequences they brought on themselves is a stretch. Every scab I ever met always had an excuse. There are lots of ways to feed one’s family without compromising your values and screwing over your co-workers.

So to clarify some of your points:

If it weren’t for ALPA (or unions in general):
- Airline management would have never thought of using contract companies to operate feeder aircraft. All those routes would have stayed mainline service with major airline pilots flying them.
- Regional airlines never would have grown beyond 19-30 seat turbo-prop operations (I guess somehow the major airline management would have kept the existence of RJs secret from the regional airlines so they wouldn’t buy them).
- There would be no scope clauses (which define limits of RJ flying) and that would somehow result in management using less RJ flying.
- Airline management would never have decided to use a seniority system. I guess maybe they’d have an LSO (like the Navy) at every airport grading landings. Top stick for the month gets first choice of lines for the next bid?

You’re exactly right, ALPA isn’t only about contracts, strikes, scabs and seniority. Personally, I think you’re selling ALPA’s safety members, past and present, and their role in shaping our industry very, very short. When it comes to airline operations, the FAA’s regulations are very often minimums. The airlines would be more than happy to just enforce those. When it comes to flight time limits, duty limits, etc. all our contracts would just say “see FARs” in those sections. But, they don’t. That’s all ALPA and we’re safer and better off for it. There are lots of other safety improvements that never would have been implemented without pressure from ALPA. Assuming our industry would be where it is today if it had been up to only the FAA and airline management is very naïve, IMO.

I never said I’m the only one capable of doing my job. I was simply trying to put our job in a more accurate context than you did with your “It’s just a job” statement. I really haven’t met too many union members who seem to feel entitled to their job or deserve it more than someone else (assuming that someone else had similar skills and experience). I think that’s way too big a brush you’re painting with. Even you can acknowledge we possess a unique skill set that not everyone has. I think there’s a difference between feeling entitled or deserving and simply expecting one’s skills and experience to be properly compensated based on the contributions made to the airline’s success.


Persecuting scabs has nothing to do with any of that. They’re selfish scum who put themselves ahead of everyone else. To me, that’s who seems to feel entitled to their job.

I’ve had quite a few scabs sit to my left and one in front and left when I was a plumber on the 727. Some could fly just fine and knew stuff I didn’t. I never said otherwise. I said, in my experience, they consistently had deficiencies in character and were poor team members. It’s probably not possible to effectively lead or be part of a crew when the other members have absolutely no respect for you. Their choice.

These are some amazing statements:

"There's no reason we can't have unions in the airlines without all the other baggage that goes with it." Really? Explain how that would work exactly.

"Besides, a good legal plan would probably offer better protection."
So, if you had an incident or accident, you’d be happy to defend yourself using the company legal plan instead of an ALPA aviation expert.

"On the other hand...don't do those things because if you do...probably you shouldn't be an airline pilot anyway."
Gee, I guess we should give this brief to every new hire and we’ll never have another accident again. There are never shades of grey in an incident and equipment or system failures never get thrown into the “catch-all” of pilot error.


"Trust me in that no one loves the unions more than airline management."
Ask Jet Blue management if this is really how they feel. Why didn't they just form their airline with a union already in place so they could start their master plan sooner?

"Without unions they wouldn't have the outsourcing regional airline monstrosity"
So, what exactly would have stopped them? It was their(management’s) idea in the first place.

"..and would have no power over you as a pilot who could just up and quit and go work for someone else at equal or better pay."
I’m pretty sure you just told me a while ago that I’m not the only one who can do my job. So what makes you think you’d have the ability to demand higher wages than any other pilot? In fact, what makes you think that the airline you just quit wouldn’t go find someone willing to work for half of what you were making to fill your spot? Maybe they just fire you because you've gotten too expensive and go find someone cheaper. Airlines have never used whipsaw tactics like that, right? They’ll recognize your skill and experience (like they always have, historically) and pay you what you're worth because you’re just that good.

"Airline pay is the lowest in history while other careers have passed us....so if you think your unions are protecting your pay....look again."
So, you think these recent pay gains in the newest contracts at UAL, Delta and AA would be higher if each pilot was able to quit and negotiate his own pay on his own?

It sounds to me like your real complaint is with the US government and their decision to de-regulate the airlines.

Last edited by Adlerdriver; 02-05-2015 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 02-05-2015, 06:54 PM
  #137  
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Thanks for the response. I see you came around on some of my points and agreed with me. You also just asked a lot of questions which I already answered.

A couple points I couldn't resist though....

I think there’s a difference between feeling entitled or deserving and simply expecting one’s skills and experience to be properly compensated based on the contributions made to the airline’s success.
I think you just defined entitlement in the very same sentence you use to deny it. Read carefully what you just wrote.

It’s probably not possible to effectively lead or be part of a crew when the other members have absolutely no respect for you. Their choice.
There you just described the ultimate in unprofessional behavior using union strong-arm mentality to rationalize it.

Every scab I ever met always had an excuse.
I could say the same thing about you. It seems to me you have a very deep hatred for a certain group of people and you will search out a rational reason to support your hatred at every opportunity. I understand now that any ability to reason with you on this subject will always be futile. There are many other examples of this phenomenon in human behavior but I'm not going to pull out a psychology degree on you because as I said...it's futile.

As far as recent contracts go....they are a spike to bring pay up a bit from record lows. This has happened over and over in our industry and it will, as it always has, swing down again even lower than before. How much were the top pilots at United getting 20 years ago....and then adjust for inflation.

For the real picture take a look at the average pay of all airline pilot operating large passenger jets in our business and compare average pay over time....that's what I'm talking about. Of course you don't care because you have your number and your entitlement so screw the rest of the pilots and the future.

"Without unions they wouldn't have the outsourcing regional airline monstrosity"
So, what exactly would have stopped them? It was their(management’s) idea in the first place.
The free market...look it up and try to understand how it works. You're living in a communist socialist fantasy world of entitlements. I prefer the real world where you work hard, compete and earn your way to the top.
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Old 02-05-2015, 08:46 PM
  #138  
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It's too bad this isn't a more mainstream location in the forum. I doubt that many folks are reading it. You are so incredibly out to lunch on much of what you're saying it's comical. I'd love to hear some of the feedback from the masses if this were in primetime. Like I first said, you are a piece of work.

I agreed with very little you said. Every bulleted point I clarified is total BS and you know it. Who's living in fantasy?

Grab a dictionary and look up entitlement. I read what I wrote and that's not it. An entitlement would be unearned and undeserved. Being properly compensated based on the value of one's skills and experience isn't an entitlement.

And union "strong arm" tactic? If someone is unable to earn the respect of their peers, that's somehow a character flaw of the peers?

I never said I hated anyone. I just call a spade a spade. Just because I don’t respect someone and the choices they’ve made in their life doesn’t mean I hate them. I just choose not to interact with them in any personal manner. I can still be (and have been) a professional on the flight deck.

“Of course you don't care because you have your number and your entitlement so screw the rest of the pilots and the future.”
What does this even mean?? If I'm not willing to jump on board the NineG fantasy wagon and try to get rid of unions, contracts and the seniority list I'm out to screw others and don't care about the future of the industry?


I'm on my third airline and spent 22+ years serving in the USAF and ANG. I had good quals, a good network and some luck. I wasn't entitled to anything. I worked hard to get here.

I understand how the free market works. ALPA didn’t come up with the idea of outsourcing regional flying, that was all airline management. You keep laying that at ALPA’s feet but that’s just not reality. Left alone, airlines would have crunched the numbers and outsourced everything that increased the bottom line. ALPA’s only effort in that area was an attempt to limit the outsourcing via scope. Their biggest error was lack of vision in their failure to recognize the threat those 19-30 seat turboprops represented when they eventually were traded in for 50-70 seat RJs.


I’m the one living in reality. I work in a flawed, seniority based, union driven industry and that’s the way it is. I’m not the one who spent 30 years fighting windmills unsuccessfully preaching against those things. I guess I missed where the real world (the major airline real world) allows you to compete and work your way to the top. Prefer that all you want but I’m pretty sure if you’re really a major airline captain, that’s not what’s happening.
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:06 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Grab a dictionary and look up entitlement. I read what I wrote and that's not it. An entitlement would be unearned and undeserved. Being properly compensated based on the value of one's skills and experience isn't an entitlement.
You are missing the point on entitlement. You are very clearly stating you believe you are owed for your experience and skills and deserve a share "based on the contributions made to the airline’s success." That's what you said and it's a typical attitude among pilots.

You are owed nothing! not by your company, your peers, your career....nothing! In fact, apart from any stock options which are a separate matter...it's not your company.

Your compensation should be based solely on market value based on your experience, skill, personality, ability to get along with others or any other factors the employer decides they want. Not on what you or your union feels you deserve.

And union "strong arm" tactic? If someone is unable to earn the respect of their peers, that's somehow a character flaw of the peers?
When based on prejudice? Yes it is a character flaw of the peers!

I never said I hated anyone. I just call a spade a spade. Just because I don’t respect someone and the choices they’ve made in their life doesn’t mean I hate them.
It is the very definition of judgmental. Your judgmental attitude leads to strong resentment at least. Maybe hatred is too strong a word....I don't know you enough but it sure seemed that way from what you said before.

I just choose not to interact with them in any personal manner. I can still be (and have been) a professional on the flight deck.
Choosing not to interact with a crew member for personal reasons has a negative impact on safety and is unprofessional.

I'm on my third airline and spent 22+ years serving in the USAF and ANG. I had good quals, a good network and some luck. I wasn't entitled to anything. I worked hard to get here.
Well said...and that will help earn you respect.

I understand how the free market works. ALPA didn’t come up with the idea of outsourcing regional flying, that was all airline management. You keep laying that at ALPA’s feet but that’s just not reality. Left alone, airlines would have crunched the numbers and outsourced everything that increased the bottom line.
I never even mentioned ALPA. I said unions. I was being deliberately general. No it wasn't the unions who came up with the plan, it was the unions that were exploited to allow the plan to work. There's a difference. I already said that.

It is the responsibility of the airlines, as privately owned businesses to push the bottom line. As a private individual operating in a free market, an employee sells his or her services to the highest bidder. The union contracts prevent that and the seniority system effectively locks the pilot into the job eliminating any free market forces from influencing compensation. This isn't an opinion, this is fact.

ALPA’s only effort in that area was an attempt to limit the outsourcing via scope. Their biggest error was lack of vision in their failure to recognize the threat those 19-30 seat turboprops represented when they eventually were traded in for 50-70 seat RJs.
This was certainly a failure but scope was a sellout...I'm not saying the unions had any choice really but without the unions the sellout wouldn't have been possible in the first place. That's how the unions enabled the ultra low pay regional airline model to be built.

Without the seniority list system, regional airlines would never be able to lock pilots into these ultra low paying contracts where they can't compete with each other and force airlines to compete for them.

My reasons for educating pilots are personal but don't have much to do with my position personally. I've had these conversations in the cockpit and am finding the attitude is slowly changing from the bottom up. If you want to go and grab your like minded friends and try to drown me out feel free but it won't change what I'm telling you.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:44 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by NineGturn View Post
You are missing the point on entitlement. You are very clearly stating you believe you are owed for your experience and skills and deserve a share "based on the contributions made to the airline’s success." That's what you said and it's a typical attitude among pilots.

You are owed nothing! not by your company, your peers, your career....nothing! In fact, apart from any stock options which are a separate matter...it's not your company.

Your compensation should be based solely on market value based on your experience, skill, personality, ability to get along with others or any other factors the employer decides they want. Not on what you or your union feels you deserve.



When based on prejudice? Yes it is a character flaw of the peers!



It is the very definition of judgmental. Your judgmental attitude leads to strong resentment at least. Maybe hatred is too strong a word....I don't know you enough but it sure seemed that way from what you said before.



Choosing not to interact with a crew member for personal reasons has a negative impact on safety and is unprofessional.



Well said...and that will help earn you respect.



I never even mentioned ALPA. I said unions. I was being deliberately general. No it wasn't the unions who came up with the plan, it was the unions that were exploited to allow the plan to work. There's a difference. I already said that.

It is the responsibility of the airlines, as privately owned businesses to push the bottom line. As a private individual operating in a free market, an employee sells his or her services to the highest bidder. The union contracts prevent that and the seniority system effectively locks the pilot into the job eliminating any free market forces from influencing compensation. This isn't an opinion, this is fact.



This was certainly a failure but scope was a sellout...I'm not saying the unions had any choice really but without the unions the sellout wouldn't have been possible in the first place. That's how the unions enabled the ultra low pay regional airline model to be built.

Without the seniority list system, regional airlines would never be able to lock pilots into these ultra low paying contracts where they can't compete with each other and force airlines to compete for them.

My reasons for educating pilots are personal but don't have much to do with my position personally. I've had these conversations in the cockpit and am finding the attitude is slowly changing from the bottom up. If you want to go and grab your like minded friends and try to drown me out feel free but it won't change what I'm telling you.
First let me make clear I do appreciate the polite tone of this conversation. And also that I am new to the real 121 world, so I might be missing some points.

That said, who should decide our "market value" then? The employer alone? If we had to negotiate our own remuneration, in a "free" market, why shouldn't us be free to unionize and better our chances?
After all freedom works both ways: the employer is free to retain us, we are free to form a union for collective agreements.

As far as the attitude toward the seniority system changing "from the bottom up": May be the young pilots you are flying with don't want to enter in a discussion with you? May be they are telling you they should get paid more than you because they feel they are sharper?

Not looking for a fight, just sincerely wondering about these points.
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