Scope Sandwich
06-18-2015, 01:35 PM
#1
done, gone skiing
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Joined APC: May 2005
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Posts: 1,601
Scope Sandwich
Just some broad thoughts about scope and the major US pax carriers that are affected by this issue.
Since the Delta pilots are sharing their pain with their current TA, a lot of interesting stuff is being talked about which, ultimately, will affect all US pilots, mostly the youngest, whether currently on a seniority list of wishing/dreaming for a career flying big airplanes for big airlines.
I am not a Delta pilot and don't have a direct dog in (their) current flight, I do have a strong interest in the collective improvement in all terms and conditions of American professional pilots, including whether they will even have the right to fly (their) airlines passengers both internationally and on their smaller gauge aircraft.
The Delta details of their prospective working agreement sheds light on both the top end and bottom of (that) carriers flying. I don't pretend to fully understand some of the details, but get the gist as Delta pilots are being squeezed by both the lower end flying (understood to be ACM or feeder flying by contractors) and at the international end, by partner airlines working in conjunction with Delta (commonly known as "Sky Team") the marketing group that connects Delta with approx 20 other airlines.
Two points relative to all pilots flying under US flag rules and (when unionized) the National Mediation Board (NMB). Macro issues regarding unionization in the US have put all labor, when operating under a union contract, under great disadvantage vis their employer.
The NMB, operating under direct influence of both the White House and Congress has the power to stimie any attempt to use a work action to threaten or force any company (operating under the Railway Labor Act). The government has allowed pilot groups to strike, but only in recent years by carriers very small and (IMHO) with weak pilots groups who could not reasonably be expected to have much affect on their own pay and benefits, let alone have a positive impact on the industry.
Speaking directly to scope issues. Major airlines have exploited post BK contacts to allow ever increasing size of contract flying (both the number and size of the aircraft) by airlines not employed by the main airline. These pilots, working for sub par organizations, lack the means to affectively fight for better terms and conditions. But it gets even better.
The larger airlines, not just content to have a lower cost feed to help boost their hubs from smaller markets, they contract with multiple airlines, forcing them to compete for the business, which, in turn, force their employees to accept poorer pay and benefits or risk loosing business to a competitor that is willing to fly for less (whip sawing).
On the other end of the flying pyramid, airlines are negotiating deals with their partner airlines, sharing seats, code sharing flights; so you think your booking a flight to, say, Paris on Delta or American, but in reality it is flown by Air France or British Airways. So why is this flying going to foreign airlines when, rightfully, US crews should have at least their passengers flying. I believe because pilots flying for airlines in the UK, France and Germany must look after their interests, otherwise those pilots will use the powers of collective labor (strike) or the power of their government(s) to pressure their airlines to look after their interests!!
There you have it. US pilots are the meat in a scope sandwich. Squeezed by Adam Smith and his magic of the free market system on the lower end, and by affective pressure by foreign pilots, governments, their airlines vis our disinterested elected officials, uncaring about working Americans but very interested in the money and influence of Wall Street and the bottom line of corporate America.
If you are young and wish to have a good career in this industry, tell your national leaders to get out of the way of the collective bargaining process of union vs management in negotiations and to push back against foreign influence; allowing you to fly between our country and the rest of the world. US airlines could give a rats @ss who does the flying, as long as its cheap and helps them make a lot of money. Speak up!!
Since the Delta pilots are sharing their pain with their current TA, a lot of interesting stuff is being talked about which, ultimately, will affect all US pilots, mostly the youngest, whether currently on a seniority list of wishing/dreaming for a career flying big airplanes for big airlines.
I am not a Delta pilot and don't have a direct dog in (their) current flight, I do have a strong interest in the collective improvement in all terms and conditions of American professional pilots, including whether they will even have the right to fly (their) airlines passengers both internationally and on their smaller gauge aircraft.
The Delta details of their prospective working agreement sheds light on both the top end and bottom of (that) carriers flying. I don't pretend to fully understand some of the details, but get the gist as Delta pilots are being squeezed by both the lower end flying (understood to be ACM or feeder flying by contractors) and at the international end, by partner airlines working in conjunction with Delta (commonly known as "Sky Team") the marketing group that connects Delta with approx 20 other airlines.
Two points relative to all pilots flying under US flag rules and (when unionized) the National Mediation Board (NMB). Macro issues regarding unionization in the US have put all labor, when operating under a union contract, under great disadvantage vis their employer.
The NMB, operating under direct influence of both the White House and Congress has the power to stimie any attempt to use a work action to threaten or force any company (operating under the Railway Labor Act). The government has allowed pilot groups to strike, but only in recent years by carriers very small and (IMHO) with weak pilots groups who could not reasonably be expected to have much affect on their own pay and benefits, let alone have a positive impact on the industry.
Speaking directly to scope issues. Major airlines have exploited post BK contacts to allow ever increasing size of contract flying (both the number and size of the aircraft) by airlines not employed by the main airline. These pilots, working for sub par organizations, lack the means to affectively fight for better terms and conditions. But it gets even better.
The larger airlines, not just content to have a lower cost feed to help boost their hubs from smaller markets, they contract with multiple airlines, forcing them to compete for the business, which, in turn, force their employees to accept poorer pay and benefits or risk loosing business to a competitor that is willing to fly for less (whip sawing).On the other end of the flying pyramid, airlines are negotiating deals with their partner airlines, sharing seats, code sharing flights; so you think your booking a flight to, say, Paris on Delta or American, but in reality it is flown by Air France or British Airways. So why is this flying going to foreign airlines when, rightfully, US crews should have at least their passengers flying. I believe because pilots flying for airlines in the UK, France and Germany must look after their interests, otherwise those pilots will use the powers of collective labor (strike) or the power of their government(s) to pressure their airlines to look after their interests!!
There you have it. US pilots are the meat in a scope sandwich. Squeezed by Adam Smith and his magic of the free market system on the lower end, and by affective pressure by foreign pilots, governments, their airlines vis our disinterested elected officials, uncaring about working Americans but very interested in the money and influence of Wall Street and the bottom line of corporate America.
If you are young and wish to have a good career in this industry, tell your national leaders to get out of the way of the collective bargaining process of union vs management in negotiations and to push back against foreign influence; allowing you to fly between our country and the rest of the world. US airlines could give a rats @ss who does the flying, as long as its cheap and helps them make a lot of money. Speak up!!
06-19-2015, 10:14 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 276
Originally Posted by dckozak
US airlines could give a rats @ss who does the flying, as long as its cheap and helps them make a lot of money. Speak up!!
A union's first responsibility is to protect scope. It's second is to protect jobs. Then comes pay, benefits, training, QOL, free coffee in the vending machines and whatever else. But it's those first two that really matter. If a union fails at securing either of those, it will eventually fail at the rest as well.
06-19-2015, 10:30 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Sr. VP of button pushing
Posts: 2,729
Originally Posted by dckozak
On the other end of the flying pyramid, airlines are negotiating deals with their partner airlines, sharing seats, code sharing flights; so you think your booking a flight to, say, Paris on Delta or American, but in reality it is flown by Air France or British Airways.
06-19-2015, 10:41 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,469
Originally Posted by Whistlin' Dan
It's not just the airlines, it's manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, electronics...virtually every major industry in this country. Call in "outsourcing," "efficiency enhancemant" or whatever, most corporations would be quite happy to become merely branding organizations, while letting the actual work fall to the latest, lowest bidder. And it's this ability of "virtual companies" to operate largely outside the bounds of labor law, accountability, and consequence that has decimated the middle-class and brought about the wage-stagnation we're now seeing.
A union's first responsibility is to protect scope. It's second is to protect jobs. Then comes pay, benefits, training, QOL, free coffee in the vending machines and whatever else. But it's those first two that really matter. If a union fails at securing either of those, it will eventually fail at the rest as well.
A union's first responsibility is to protect scope. It's second is to protect jobs. Then comes pay, benefits, training, QOL, free coffee in the vending machines and whatever else. But it's those first two that really matter. If a union fails at securing either of those, it will eventually fail at the rest as well.
06-19-2015, 07:06 PM
#7
done, gone skiing
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
Originally Posted by Twin Wasp
Of the 16 flights LHR-DFW shown on the BA web site for next Thursday (random day) only one of the three non-stops is BA and six of the thirteen connecting flights are totally AA or US Air. It works both ways.
06-30-2015, 01:31 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 96
You can thank ALPA and co-herts, the people who negotiated this claptrap in the 80's. ALPA, had a choice and decided to go with immediate gain. It wasn't only ALPA, remember AA and the lower pay scales for new hires. I remember an original member of ALPA who said that the 80's and Raygun were the end of the line for unions.
07-02-2015, 05:18 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,469
This thread will quietly expire. The multinational drum beat to marginalize any semblance of a barrier to our markets will not. So as I head over to Walmart in the Hyundai to pile high my Chinese patio furniture in prep to watch the 400 this weekend, Belgian-Brazilian Bud in hand, on a 60" Samsung while the next gen of job seeker kids next door toss sparklers over the fence; at least I can reminisce about the shaker hood cuda I almost convinced my dad to help me buy when I was lucky enough to grow up here.
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