I recommend ALPA over IBT as they are a Pilot Union, IBT is a Trucker Union that has an Airline Division. ALPA has much more experience in Pilot Contracts and quite frankly has done more for Professional Aviation than any other Union.

Sadly, this has been ALPA’s standard line for the past four years every time a pilot group has rejected them. What Redeye is not saying is that the Airline Division is run by pilots, not “truckers” as he says in such a derogatory way. Let's remember that ALPA is but a small part of AFL-CIO...who has truckers and others as well. Why would he say something like that?

The Airline Division Director is a former 747-400 Captain who has not only airline, but corporate and business experience. He was also the Atlas MEC Chairman for three consecutive terms and a member of the ALPA Presidents Committee for Cargo. He led his pilots through the Atlas bankruptcy in 2005 and because of the relationship he forged with management, ensured that their contract was not touched. In fact because of that relationship, the pilots got things back in the bankruptcy that the old management team had taken pre bankruptcy.

The Assistant Division Director is a former ALPA Senior Contract Administrator with over 30 years experience in dealing with pilots and their contracts. He left ALPA when he was illegally fired by ALPA management. He and the others were awarded their jobs back with full retro. What does it say about a union that illegally fires its own unionized employees?

Their senior negotiator is a retired UAL Captain and former head of the UAL MEC.

He has extensive negotiating experience in negotiating pilot contracts going back decades. One of their other senior negotiators has decades of ALPA experience as well including being a former member of the ALPA National Collective Bargaining Committee.

So, as you can see…not a “truck driver” among them. And in the past four years, a track record that they can show you if you’d like, of contracts that have improved each property. And not one concessionary agreement signed, something only the IBT Airline Division can say.

Now all that being said no Union is perfect, ALPA has its warts as does IBT.

Completely correct statement. Where the difference lies is in what they have done to address the “warts.” Under the new leadership that assumed the helm four years ago as I mentioned above, the IBT Airline Division’s “warts” were addressed head on. Armed with the support of the General President and Board, the problems were addressed and removed. A very bad mess that existed in the major Local was resolved by taking over and ultimately dissolving the unit. The member carriers were reassigned and the bad actors removed. Those carriers are now part of a strong and growing unit, Local 1224 and are thriving.

While you will hear continual references to “truck drivers,” “garbage men” and the like as they seek to win your confidence, the one thing they cannot escape is the reality that since the change in leadership and changes made four years ago, the Airline Division has not faced charges of illegally terminating union employees (ALPA) or accused of Duty of Fair Representation (TWA vs. ALPA).

Look at carriers with the Best Contracts, Most are (or at least were ALPA or former ALPA). The Common theme is the Airlines with the Best Pay are also the more profitable. Currently FDX, UPS and SWA. previously before 9/11 and all the Major Bankruptcies it was Delta, USAir, United, NWA all ALPA at the time.

Let’s look at the carriers mentioned. UPS was never ALPA and has their own in house union, the IPA. Southwest was never ALPA and has SWAPA. Both have contracts that were negotiated without ALPA.

Only FDX is ALPA. Redeye can and should honestly speak to the problems there, or you can read about them extensively in the Cargo forum here.

Just as you can and should read about what has happened to smaller carriers there and what happens if you end up in a legacies “backyard.” Or you can ask the NWA pilots how they were treated in the merger with DAL.

UPS has an outstanding contract. Atlas’ recent contract…their second…was finally accomplished when the pilots voted to decertify ALPA and move to the IBT. The reason was simple. ALPA management and leadership actively blocked the merger of the two carriers beginning in 2007. They would be on their third contract by now otherwise. Should you wish to discuss that, I’d be happy to do so offline here. While Redeye may claim knowledge, I had a ringside seat.

The Atlas contract recognized the value of QOL and pay, combined with a growing airline. In terms of airlines with strong balance sheets, I think you can compare that of Atlas to any carrier ALPA represents. You will find a strong, well diversified and growing carrier with a solid long term.
With other carriers, you will see varying levels. One thing you don’t see is the working relationship between labor and management. IBT has made it a practice to find areas of common ground where management and labor can and do work effectively for the good of both. It’s apparent not only with the pilot groups, but the other groups that they represent as well.

The $180 million dollar bridge contract they negotiated for UAL mechanics is an example. It was not a “final” contract; but one that brought them up from the bankruptcy contract and concessions they gave up years ago. It positioned them on a better level so that the post merger contract for CAL, UAL and CAL Micronesia would be even better. By working with…instead of fighting…UAL management, they brought back maintenance jobs to SFO and ended foreign maintenance outsourcing.

Cub, those things don’t happen when labor and management can’t find common ground. Look at where the UAL pilots are right now. They can’t make progress because they can’t find a way to sit down and negotiate. Their senior pilots have sued ALPA and won. The junior pilots case will likely go the same way. Just as the TWA pilots who have won a major suit against ALPA.

There isn't one IBT contract that I am aware of that has ever been industry leading or close to it. The Polar/Atlas contract (now under IBT) was negotiated by ALPA and then they decertified ALPA for IBT several years ago(thats another story).

This is a factually incorrect statement about Atlas as previously mentioned and as noted below. It was the leadership of the former Atlas MEC Chairman; now Airline Division Director, that got the Atlas pilots a SUBSTANTIALLY better first contract than the one ALPA said was the best they could get. It was ALPA’s refusal to negotiate on a merged contract that led to the decertification of ALPA. And it was the IBT Airline Division that provided the resources and support staff that led to the current combined contract.

The underlying promise in Redeye’s comment here is “join ALPA and get an industry leading contract.” I would invite you to ask anyone if that happened in their first contract with their airline, ALPA or not. It doesn’t.

As a baseline, again consider Atlas. The first contract ALPA negotiated for them was an 85 hour / 17 day (flexible to 21 day) month with very marginal work rules. Only after 85 hours did you get OT pay. It was roundly rejected.

Under the new MEC Chairman (the man who is now the IBT Airline Division Director), the agreement was renegotiated, with the help of the NMB, despite protests and threats of cutting off funding by ALPA. 85 hours before OT went to 62 hours. And the pay rate went up 33% from what ALPA said was the “best they could get.” Other small changes were made. Not because more could not have been done. The Atlas leadership found that ALPA had gone behind their backs to the NMB to block any other changes. Again, it was the one on one leadership of the man who now is the IBT Airline Division Director, sitting down with the NMB…that made additional changes possible.

And over the term of the contract, by forming a solid working relationship with management, more improvements came along. Not everything they wanted, but a lot more than when they were told it was the “best they could get.”

Now…will you get the best in the industry in your first contract? No one does. At any union, including ALPA. What you WILL get is a dedicated and focused team that will work with the people YOU pick to lead your group. A team that has extensive economic analysis, RLA, legal and regulatory experience. A union that has done more extensive research and understands your management, investors, vendors and anything related to your airline than anyone else. That’s the advantage of becoming a member of a growing, 80,000 member Airline Division that is part of a larger, 1.6 million member union. You now have leverage to help you get the best first contract possible and use that as your springboard to even better ones in the years ahead.

You will hear some people say go independent. That is an Option but unless you are a Big Carrier than can get all your pilots to Voluntarily pay dues it is an Uphill and very expensive battle. If you are in the Organizing stages, it will be much more economical to vote in a National Union to help your group get started. Again, I am partial to ALPA. I am sure you will get other opinions on this.

When considering economics, consider dues and where your dues money will go. At ALPA, your 1.94% goes to ALPA. They will decide what you get back and what you get billed for.

The Airline Division is different. Your dues are 1.56%. With the exception of .22% of that dues revenue, the money stays with YOUR Local to use as YOU see fit. The .22% that goes to the Division covers the cost of representation and the other assistance they provide at your request.

As a consequence, you don’t see a $540,000.00 salary paid to the Airline Division Director as you see with the ALPA President. Nor do the staff make such salaries. None get free new cars. That dues money is yours.

So you have a choice. Out of $100.00 in pay, do you send $1.94 to ALPA and get an unknown portion back? Or do you KEEP $1.56 with your local and send about .32 cents to the Airline Division? That’s a decision for you and your fellow pilots to make.

Bottom line is Your Local Pilots will be the ones who succeed or Fail.
ALPA can certainly help, IBT can help, but it always comes down to the will of Local Pilots and leadership on the local level no matter what Union is involved.

I fully agree. Your success will depend on your fellow pilots and your decisions to work together and support each other. Whatever resources you need will be available for the asking, and you will be supported, not told what to do.

In the end, the decision to stand united, and jointly chart a course for the future rests with you. Ask hard question. Search out answers. Ask again if you didn’t get an answer. You will come to a sound decision.

Good Luck