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Air Wisconsin still a good choice?

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Air Wisconsin still a good choice?

Old 06-07-2019, 06:57 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Turnamdburn200 View Post
Just remember, the standards for the check-ride and tasks that must be completed are set by the FAA. The completion standards are similar for all regionals, the only difference is the process to get people to the checkride. Just imagine having 2 flight schools side by side on the same airport, one gets students a private license in 42 hours on average with less than 10% washout. The second takes 65 hours and has a 50% completion. Both use the same DPEs. Something is seriously wrong at school number 2 in how they train. This is Air Wisconsin right now. It has nothing to do with the material being taught but rather how it’s taught.
Interesting, I was lucky at AW and I had someone who would rather talk about motorcycles for 25 minutes than the 4 hour orals other folks were giving when i went though. This was 2015 FWIW. But at my second regional everyone is given 15 questions. No more, no less.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnamdburn200 View Post
It’s not hard if you can memorize the flows and Callouts and have a lot of imagination. (Things happen faster in cpt with zero visual cue compared to the sim) (it takes 45 seconds to a minute or so for the real thing to go from “set thrust” to 1000’ but in cpt it happens in 15 seconds. when I went through I met a captain upgrade going through with a new hire at the bar and he was saying that it’s much harder now and there is a lot more to it than when he went through as a new hire. He said it’s a lot more organized with more completion standards.

It’s not hard but I can see why many have issues with it
I actually struggled more going into the sim from CPT because of a negative transference. Whereas in CPT your triggers are coming from the instructor, so it’s all verbal cues, then in the sim the triggers are now visual. I had great instructors, I struggled a bit in the sim for a few sessions, but ended up completing training in the allocated foot print. It was work, but not insurmountable.

As far as pilot A vs Pilot B...yeah, the info to pass may be the same, but I’ll take the guy who has the next level of deeper knowledge and critical thinking skills over mr check the box any day, that’s what the 50 people in the back are paying for.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon View Post
“Organized and completion standards” make it easier. You should know exactly what’s expected of you and failing or passing shouldn’t be a surprise then.


All of the people in my class that did not make it either would not spend the time studying or had bad attitudes. The people that do not make it blame other people for their own shortcomings. They would do it in the classroom and they would do it in this chat room. Put the time and then you will make it, don’t worry about who the instructor is they want to see you be successful.

Anyone who says commuting for an airplane is better than living in base to fly whatever is selling something. Living in base now. I worked for two different airlines and the pilot group and the maintenance and the type of airplane and the training and all that doesn’t matter one percent as much as does my 20 minute drive to work.
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:02 AM
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This thread has gotten interesting .... to the original question, is Air Wis and CAE a good choice? It sounds like in the original author’s circumstances, I would encourage you to consider applying. They are pretty much still taking anyone with a pilots license and a pulse. Columbia will be a crew base for at least a couple more years, but that may change sooner than people think/wish. There are many that wish AW would give up east coast/Dulles operations in favor of shifting west/Denver ops. And who knows, they may ...

Then, this thread appears to have shifted to training with primary focus on Cockpit Procedures Training (CPT). I have done a lot of teaching in many technical fields requiring similar knowledge levels as CPT, and my opinion is that this particular class is poorly structured for the amount of learning that needs to happen. If you didn’t have the time or understanding to read ahead and see what to expect, you can easily be blind sided and/or fail the training. You have 96 hours to memorize a ton of information, to work with a teammate you’ve never met, and have to sleep in there somewhere.

I came through the training, all on footprint. I was blessed with several very good instructors which helped a ton. I studied hard, read ahead, and tried to be as prepared as I could be. But, this particular section is poorly designed, too short, and can contribute highly to failures either at this section or later sim training. In my opinion, this class could easily be stretched into a 2 week session and should include Level B, non-moving simulators or some kind of touch screen system. The old paper tiger is a poor learning system in the 21st century. Do people get through it? Yes, but good people are being washed out by a poor learning process too. Success rates would increase dramatically if this section were improved.

So, I hope folks consider coming to AW but be prepared to read, study hard, and put some work into sitting on the flight deck.
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:12 AM
  #55  
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AirWis says if you need additional training no problem in CPT. But they don't give it to you, you're gone. This has happen to a few most recently. Also in Sim training their instructor will fail you, they don't care what it does to your career. AirWis Sim instructors have a bad attitude maybe because United has not hired them.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer1213 View Post
This thread has gotten interesting .... to the original question, is Air Wis and CAE a good choice? It sounds like in the original author’s circumstances, I would encourage you to consider applying. They are pretty much still taking anyone with a pilots license and a pulse. Columbia will be a crew base for at least a couple more years, but that may change sooner than people think/wish. There are many that wish AW would give up east coast/Dulles operations in favor of shifting west/Denver ops. And who knows, they may ...

Then, this thread appears to have shifted to training with primary focus on Cockpit Procedures Training (CPT). I have done a lot of teaching in many technical fields requiring similar knowledge levels as CPT, and my opinion is that this particular class is poorly structured for the amount of learning that needs to happen. If you didn’t have the time or understanding to read ahead and see what to expect, you can easily be blind sided and/or fail the training.You have 96 hours to memorize a ton of information, to work with a teammate you’ve never met, and have to sleep in there somewhere.

I came through the training, all on footprint. I was blessed with several very good instructors which helped a ton. I studied hard, read ahead, and tried to be as prepared as I could be. But, this particular section is poorly designed, too short, and can contribute highly to failures either at this section or later sim training. In my opinion, this class could easily be stretched into a 2 week session and should include Level B, non-moving simulators or some kind of touch screen system. The old paper tiger is a poor learning system in the 21st century. Do people get through it? Yes, but good people are being washed out by a poor learning process too. Success rates would increase dramatically if this section were improved.

So, I hope folks consider coming to AW but be prepared to read, study hard, and put some work into sitting on the flight deck.
The syllabus, available on day one of new hire training, says to have the knowledge down before you show up. Ground/systems instructors should be reminding people about this too. You can memorize flows and callouts without guidance. If you’re learning all your flows and callouts during CPT you’ve already done it wrong. It’s meant more as a guided study to refine the material.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon View Post
The syllabus, available on day one of new hire training, says to have the knowledge down before you show up. Ground/systems instructors should be reminding people about this too. You can memorize flows and callouts without guidance. If you’re learning all your flows and callouts during CPT you’ve already done it wrong. It’s meant more as a guided study to refine the material.
This is true, but I know people who did this and were still washed out. I know of a guy right know that management told him to call in every day or he would be terminated (he was out on sick leave for surgery) the union intervened and told him not to talk to anyone but them. He knows their going to wash him out once he returns as he was already mailed a cobra coverage letter they said on accident.

Still doesn’t explain them withholding pay when you return from an acute illness like the flu or pneumonia and they won’t pay you until you get put back into a training slot, (for weeks) and the union has fought them on this and management takes the stand they don’t give a u know what. Management will threaten and retaliate on you even if you didn’t fail out, they will wash you out. I was washed over my issue along with other pilots and I didn’t fail any training events. I received a separation notice and a cobra letter. Filed for unemployment, won that claim and now pursuing legal recourse.

I’m sure not everyone who doesn’t make it through training had a bad attitude, was lazy, didn’t study, etc. What about those who complete systems and then are scheduled for CPT 2 days after? They are still required to perform to standard or get washed on the second attempt which may be sceduled in a very short time frame, like a day. Did those people qualify as being lazy, bad attitude, etc? Management as well as some instructors there are in need of a serious house cleaning.

CPT could be greatly improved like get rid of the paper tiger and get touch screens so folks can see what happens when buttons are pushed, instead of and we literally did this to the questions of APU fire test or Fire Fail we had to sound it out etc. The FAA guidance on this is not to rely solely on memory for these flight test, but Air Wisconsin is more restrictive.

Last edited by Dr strangepork; 06-11-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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What’s the training timeline looking like now? Still 4-5 months or shortened?

Very disconcerting if they don’t give you certain amount of time in between systems and CPT to go home and memorize flows, callouts, numbers etc. I don’t need three months or anything but two weeks or so would be appropriate, I think IMO 🤷*♂️. With all of what is being said, would have thought management would appreciate their money more that they’ve invested in an applicant and not spoon feed but give a person at least some time to study. Kinda makes me think I should apply to one or two others instead of just ZW.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Av8tor8710 View Post
What’s the training timeline looking like now? Still 4-5 months or shortened?

Very disconcerting if they don’t give you certain amount of time in between systems and CPT to go home and memorize flows, callouts, numbers etc. I don’t need three months or anything but two weeks or so would be appropriate, I think IMO 🤷*♂️. With all of what is being said, would have thought management would appreciate their money more that they’ve invested in an applicant and not spoon feed but give a person at least some time to study. Kinda makes me think I should apply to one or two others instead of just ZW.
It is still several months between systems and cpt. Right now from the second January class on there “might”be 3 line qualified pilots. I can only think of 2. The other 60+ hired from the middle of January are either stuck in training or no longer at the company. Also the syllabus for cpt will change at least once if not 2x while you are home studying for one. They also won’t push it out to the iPads and leave you to find it on e-learning yourself.
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnamdburn200 View Post
It is still several months between systems and cpt. Right now from the second January class on there “might”be 3 line qualified pilots. I can only think of 2. The other 60+ hired from the middle of January are either stuck in training or no longer at the company. Also the syllabus for cpt will change at least once if not 2x while you are home studying for one. They also won’t push it out to the iPads and leave you to find it on e-learning yourself.
No longer at the company because they resigned, were terminated, chose to leave because they got tired of waiting....do you know?

Again, I’m not about spoon feeding but why wouldn’t they at least attempt to set up applicants for success? I’m sure they do but not even a heads up “oh hey btw syllabus changed, may want to take a look at the new one”.
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