Air Wis as a first experience for Part 121 Tr
12-24-2019, 07:34 PM
#11
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 4
Here are some more posts from other pilots:
"It’s not hard if you can memorize the flows and Callouts and have a lot of """imagination""". (Things happen faster in cpt with zero visual cue compared to the sim) (it takes 45 seconds to a minute or so for the real thing to go from “set thrust” to 1000’ but in cpt it happens in 15 seconds. when I went through I met a captain upgrade going through with a new hire at the bar and he was saying that it’s much harder now and there is a lot more to it than when he went through as a new hire. He said it’s a lot more organized with more completion standards.
It’s not hard but I can see why many have issues with it"
"Available on Day 1? Yes ... have to to read, understand, and digest while going through Indoc and systems? Hardly. I understand the premise of this style of learning which is mostly driven by cost reduction. This “Survivor Island “ style of learning can be handled by some people, but many struggle. I also understand that this style of learning has a few supporters who think it’s a weeding process to help keep those who aren’t good enough or smart enough out. Only the strong and committed survive. Even the old Fundamentals of Instruction, that many were supposed to have read, will tell you that different learners learn differently.
I understand why AW chose to teach this way, but I don’t agree with it. I stand by my opinion that it is a poor learning system, with numerous flaws, based on an outdated model that was poorly designed to begin with. Indoc and Systems were smooth, well paced, and gave time for people to learn and understand the new world of regional jets at AW. It’s the same style of learning that people experience from Kindergarten on through all of their aviation training, because it works. Then there’s a huge shift in learning style ... I know it’s not AW’s job to make people’s airline pilot dreams come true, but the company’s success is literally tied to this poor example of training."
"Air Wisconsin is known for having standards that are high, in many cases higher than what most would consider “fair.”"
"I am over 5 months since DOH. I only know of one person from my class that’s made it to the line. Some have completed a full set of sims and require extra training. Some have not. I also know someone hired in April who is on the line and others from that time who have had 20 + sims meanwhile those hired in January are still waiting. People are resigning due to the wait am training going out of seniority"
"I would use the five months to find a better regional job. I did my time at Air Wisconsin and I am not likely to recommend that product to others."
"Air Wisconsin was a great company. Management and labor relations are terrible and have been for the last decade+, there is not a certain future for their 50-seat regional jets nor is there a plan to refleet the airline.
Would I send someone there knowing what I know now? 100% no. In fact two people that I have sent to Piedmont and Endeavor both saw a quick upgrade, one went to Southwest and the other is waiting on a class date at United.
“Pick your poison” is not quite a fair statement anymore. 10 years ago you had many poisons to pick from. Some of those poisons aren’t even available to pick from anymore. Do your due diligence with regional airlines and make a choice with a carrier that best suits you, your family if you have one, and your quality of life. QOL exists, just not so much at Air Wisconsin.
My last week at Air Wisconsin I was rerouted and they attempted to junior man me on my last trip at the company. The airline had some great days and does offer excellent insurance, but beyond that there are many many many better choices out there."
"Failure rate is high, expect 6+ months for training. No news on any of the other items, except I know that the company will not give us pay rates anywhere near the other regionals. Taken from numerous MEC reps. I would advise from coming here and going somewhere else."
"Air Wisconsin and 'treating people right' no longer belong in the same sentence. ..I guess you could say they used to."
"It’s not hard if you can memorize the flows and Callouts and have a lot of """imagination""". (Things happen faster in cpt with zero visual cue compared to the sim) (it takes 45 seconds to a minute or so for the real thing to go from “set thrust” to 1000’ but in cpt it happens in 15 seconds. when I went through I met a captain upgrade going through with a new hire at the bar and he was saying that it’s much harder now and there is a lot more to it than when he went through as a new hire. He said it’s a lot more organized with more completion standards.
It’s not hard but I can see why many have issues with it"
"Available on Day 1? Yes ... have to to read, understand, and digest while going through Indoc and systems? Hardly. I understand the premise of this style of learning which is mostly driven by cost reduction. This “Survivor Island “ style of learning can be handled by some people, but many struggle. I also understand that this style of learning has a few supporters who think it’s a weeding process to help keep those who aren’t good enough or smart enough out. Only the strong and committed survive. Even the old Fundamentals of Instruction, that many were supposed to have read, will tell you that different learners learn differently.
I understand why AW chose to teach this way, but I don’t agree with it. I stand by my opinion that it is a poor learning system, with numerous flaws, based on an outdated model that was poorly designed to begin with. Indoc and Systems were smooth, well paced, and gave time for people to learn and understand the new world of regional jets at AW. It’s the same style of learning that people experience from Kindergarten on through all of their aviation training, because it works. Then there’s a huge shift in learning style ... I know it’s not AW’s job to make people’s airline pilot dreams come true, but the company’s success is literally tied to this poor example of training."
"Air Wisconsin is known for having standards that are high, in many cases higher than what most would consider “fair.”"
"I am over 5 months since DOH. I only know of one person from my class that’s made it to the line. Some have completed a full set of sims and require extra training. Some have not. I also know someone hired in April who is on the line and others from that time who have had 20 + sims meanwhile those hired in January are still waiting. People are resigning due to the wait am training going out of seniority"
"I would use the five months to find a better regional job. I did my time at Air Wisconsin and I am not likely to recommend that product to others."
"Air Wisconsin was a great company. Management and labor relations are terrible and have been for the last decade+, there is not a certain future for their 50-seat regional jets nor is there a plan to refleet the airline.
Would I send someone there knowing what I know now? 100% no. In fact two people that I have sent to Piedmont and Endeavor both saw a quick upgrade, one went to Southwest and the other is waiting on a class date at United.
“Pick your poison” is not quite a fair statement anymore. 10 years ago you had many poisons to pick from. Some of those poisons aren’t even available to pick from anymore. Do your due diligence with regional airlines and make a choice with a carrier that best suits you, your family if you have one, and your quality of life. QOL exists, just not so much at Air Wisconsin.
My last week at Air Wisconsin I was rerouted and they attempted to junior man me on my last trip at the company. The airline had some great days and does offer excellent insurance, but beyond that there are many many many better choices out there."
"Failure rate is high, expect 6+ months for training. No news on any of the other items, except I know that the company will not give us pay rates anywhere near the other regionals. Taken from numerous MEC reps. I would advise from coming here and going somewhere else."
"Air Wisconsin and 'treating people right' no longer belong in the same sentence. ..I guess you could say they used to."
12-25-2019, 06:31 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: If I tell you, I'd have to kill you
Posts: 292
Originally Posted by TurnandburnCRJ2
I highly regret choosing Air Wisconsin to be the first airline that I did Part 121 training with.
Now, I have a stain on my permanent record which I have worked hard to keep clean.
The problem with the training at Air Wisconsin is it is designed to be a pressure cooker. Management wants to be picky about which pilots they hire, but they don't want to pay a high industry salary, so they have decided the best way to reduce their simulator$$$ and IOE training$$$ fees is to try and send their pilot recruits blind into CPT so they have an inexpensive way to weed recruits out early on.
Air Wisconsin buys large blocks of leftover simulator time from competing regionals because it costs less. The problem with buying your simulator time this way is it can create big bottlenecks in your training flow. People get pushed too slow or too fast through training and it effects success rates.
This airline has a bottom of the barrel training department compared to other Part 121 regionals.
Air Wisconsin was the third regional that I applied at. To do it over again I would have applied at all the other regionals before resorting to Air Wisconsin.
Here are some quotes from another member on here that I thought would be helpful to ATP-CTP people:
"45%?? My class was 45% class before was 60% class after was just over 50, one after that was 40%. We have a very high failure rate. When I talk to friends that went to other regionals they have whole classes finish ioe before we get our trainees into the sim. "
"We have had over 150 new hires enter training this year, of those 150 under 100 are still on the seniority list with around 70 still in training. Do the math, of the 150 hired only 30 or so are done with training. It’s pathetic. Not all are failures, some moved into better things but most resigned during training at the request of the company"
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Note: I can't describe Air Wisconsin's training better than the way this guy described it here:
"Except for the fact they don’t teach profiles or flows, they give give you handouts and expect you to show to procedures trainer knowing them without prior instruction. The procedure trainer is nothing more than the student demonstrating they can do it all. """Air wisconsin is train by evaluation.""""
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
btw: I just wanted to say that Air Wisconsin's training is not impossible. If you are a quick learner and adjust easily to big jumps than you can probably pass this training without too many hiccups. Most people have trouble learning things this way.
Now, I have a stain on my permanent record which I have worked hard to keep clean.
The problem with the training at Air Wisconsin is it is designed to be a pressure cooker. Management wants to be picky about which pilots they hire, but they don't want to pay a high industry salary, so they have decided the best way to reduce their simulator$$$ and IOE training$$$ fees is to try and send their pilot recruits blind into CPT so they have an inexpensive way to weed recruits out early on.
Air Wisconsin buys large blocks of leftover simulator time from competing regionals because it costs less. The problem with buying your simulator time this way is it can create big bottlenecks in your training flow. People get pushed too slow or too fast through training and it effects success rates.
This airline has a bottom of the barrel training department compared to other Part 121 regionals.
Air Wisconsin was the third regional that I applied at. To do it over again I would have applied at all the other regionals before resorting to Air Wisconsin.
Here are some quotes from another member on here that I thought would be helpful to ATP-CTP people:
"45%?? My class was 45% class before was 60% class after was just over 50, one after that was 40%. We have a very high failure rate. When I talk to friends that went to other regionals they have whole classes finish ioe before we get our trainees into the sim. "
"We have had over 150 new hires enter training this year, of those 150 under 100 are still on the seniority list with around 70 still in training. Do the math, of the 150 hired only 30 or so are done with training. It’s pathetic. Not all are failures, some moved into better things but most resigned during training at the request of the company"
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Note: I can't describe Air Wisconsin's training better than the way this guy described it here:
"Except for the fact they don’t teach profiles or flows, they give give you handouts and expect you to show to procedures trainer knowing them without prior instruction. The procedure trainer is nothing more than the student demonstrating they can do it all. """Air wisconsin is train by evaluation.""""
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
btw: I just wanted to say that Air Wisconsin's training is not impossible. If you are a quick learner and adjust easily to big jumps than you can probably pass this training without too many hiccups. Most people have trouble learning things this way.
I left Air Wisconsin last year. So I really don’t have a dog in this fight. I disagree with you. I found the instructors to be nothing short of professional and they all wanted to see everyone pass. Nobody was out to get anyone. And no instructor wants to see anyone fail or wash out of training.
Did you come prepared? Did you study? Know your flows? Call outs? Memory items? Limitations?
Failures reflect on the instructors. So they don’t want to see their students fail. But I will say, they have a standard they must hold you to. They don’t want to sign off a student who they feel isn’t ready. That would be a disservice to the student as well as the fellow pilots they would be flying with.
With that being said, maybe you should do remedial training on your work ethic and attitude? We have many new hire and upgrade candidates get through just fine.
It’s faced paced and it requires a lot of work and effort. You’re getting paid to learn. Nothing will be handed to anyone on a silver platter.
Just my thoughts.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
12-25-2019, 06:50 AM
#14
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
My experiences with AWAC newhire training are extremely dated, back nearly 14 years...but my experience then was vastly different than stated by the OP - who still hasn't explicitly stated what he/she struggled with.
After the NTSB released docket info about the background of the Atlas 3591 FO's training history (which included resigning during training from AWAC), I'm not sure I put much credibility into somebody stating "AWAC's training sucks".
You want to be a professional, show up and act like one. Don't expect to be spoonfed, study on your own time, if you need help ask for it, but ultimately if you don't progress to standard then that's on you. One failure doesn't mean you are a bad pilot, perhaps you just weren't ready and plenty of folks with a second chance have had good successful careers...but not everybody is cut out for airline flying specifically or professional flying in general. The world needs ditch diggers, too.
After the NTSB released docket info about the background of the Atlas 3591 FO's training history (which included resigning during training from AWAC), I'm not sure I put much credibility into somebody stating "AWAC's training sucks".
You want to be a professional, show up and act like one. Don't expect to be spoonfed, study on your own time, if you need help ask for it, but ultimately if you don't progress to standard then that's on you. One failure doesn't mean you are a bad pilot, perhaps you just weren't ready and plenty of folks with a second chance have had good successful careers...but not everybody is cut out for airline flying specifically or professional flying in general. The world needs ditch diggers, too.
12-25-2019, 07:22 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 841
Students get tons of extra sims and up to 100+ hours of ioe to figure this out. My last guy was sent back to the sim after struggling on ioe, sat seat support for several days, then went jump seating around on awac metal like a motivated new hire who's struggling should, and finished ioe. A good attitude goes far. Even captain upgrades are allowed extra trips these days if they need it. If you can't get through then you should be looking in the mirror. Blaming everyone else for your shortcomings isn't going to help you in this industry. I have 1 foot out the door here and a stack of books to learn for the new job. You won't find me crying to the masses if I jack it up.
12-25-2019, 07:38 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2019
Posts: 388
I'm not at Air Wisc. so in all fairness IDK. I'm at PDT, and there's a lot of former Air Wisc. guys here. I've heard very similar stories about it not being a pleasant experience (for a variety of reasons). And this is coming from guys who went through PDT Dash and Jet Training. So that says something.
Just make sure you're studying hard. It's certainly not impossible. GL
Just make sure you're studying hard. It's certainly not impossible. GL
12-25-2019, 07:55 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 303
My experience with our training was a complete 180 from the OP. Without getting into details if anyone was ripe for a 121 failure it was me. Let’s just say I sat out the lost decade before finally coming back to flying. My recent flight time, instrument proficiency and high performance, multi engine time were all pegged at 0. CFI’ing was the total extent of my background and I was so far removed from doing that it was irrelevant.
My sim instructor was also an examiner known to be one of the toughest. My checkride was with an examiner known to be THE toughest.
I did do 3 extra sims on top of the 10 scheduled. Oral was over in 45 min. 100% of what I was told to know was asked. 0 surprises. I was more then ready and we flew right through it. That carried over to checkride that I actually had fun doing as crazy as that sounds. IOE was fine - though it take me about 40 hrs, but not many are doing it in 25 these days at any regional.
In my double digit size class there were no failures of any of the part 91, CFI, previous or current 121 or military experienced pilots. There were 135 guys who either had a bust but made it on the next try or ended up resigning. % wise I’d put our class in line with industry average in terms of those whom busted but made it through on second try and in terms of those who resigned without completing training.
My sim instructor was also an examiner known to be one of the toughest. My checkride was with an examiner known to be THE toughest.
I did do 3 extra sims on top of the 10 scheduled. Oral was over in 45 min. 100% of what I was told to know was asked. 0 surprises. I was more then ready and we flew right through it. That carried over to checkride that I actually had fun doing as crazy as that sounds. IOE was fine - though it take me about 40 hrs, but not many are doing it in 25 these days at any regional.
In my double digit size class there were no failures of any of the part 91, CFI, previous or current 121 or military experienced pilots. There were 135 guys who either had a bust but made it on the next try or ended up resigning. % wise I’d put our class in line with industry average in terms of those whom busted but made it through on second try and in terms of those who resigned without completing training.
12-25-2019, 08:02 AM
#20
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,492
I suppose there are a few in every class who expect a type rating as a ‘participation’ award for just showing up. Luckily, most of those don’t wind up staying. Sort of like this guy mentioned in a recent NTSB report:
This profession isn’t about hurt feelings ladies and gentlemen, it’s about performing to standard. Because it certainly can be life and death. Nobody has to take the job.
Merry Christmas
He was employed by Air Wisconsin from April 2012 to August 2012 as a CRJ FO, and according to records he did not complete CRJ training and submitted a resignation letter on August 2012 citing personal reasons.
Merry Christmas
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