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AS vs SWA: WWYD?

Old 10-21-2023, 07:15 PM
  #1  
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Default AS vs SWA: WWYD?

Thought I'd quit clogging up the "Alaska Hiring" thread so that the discussion could focus on hiring. Anyhow, I am fortunate enough to have CJOs at both shops, and will have to choose a class date soon. I am utterly torn between AS and SWA and thought I'd seek advice.

AS's culture / vibe have always really appealed to me, and your new TA is a huge benefit. That speaks to the (positive) state of the management/ employee relationship at AS.

I'm looking for a place to hang my hat for the final 15 years of my career; I have zero desire to go fly widebodies. All of the good things I'd heard about AS are what compelled me to apply, and I loved what I heard on interview day. However, this decision ain't easy.

I live in the junior base for both carriers (SWA/OAK and AS/SFO.) My #1 priority, by far, is scheduling flexibility. Upgrade time is also somewhat important, as I only have 15 yrs left in the game. Time to hold a line is also important, because reserve is a special kind of torture at my current shop.

So my questions are:

• What does scheduling flexibility look like at AS? That is my #1 priority, by far. My buddies at SWA (mostly junior FOs) universally love SWA because they started with 15 days off on reserve (that's significantly better than the 12 days off at AS), and now that they hold lines, I've seen in detail how their bidding/ trading works. The ELITT system they have is kind of amazing, in that it's very easy to move stuff around. Or you can bid a couple days of vacation, and if that vacation day touches an assigned trip, that trip is dropped. I can't tell you how incredible that is, considering the scheduling policies at my current shop.

What I've read on this forum, though, is that scheduling flexibility at AS is far less than what SWA has. I get that PBS is coming at AS, but we have PBS at my current shop and there is zero flexibility to move anything because everyone is max'ed out and we're permanently below min reserve staffing. I'm like the informal PBS help guy for my base and while I know the system inside out, I can't even get a single turn (!) picked up on our scheduling board because everyone is working to 117 duty limits and min days off. So the whole point of my post is to understand how much flexibility your junior peeps have.

• How long for a new hire to hold a line in SFO?

• Are SFO lines packed with lots of redeyes?

• There's a lot of talk about SFO growth, but from the investor presentation, AS is planning low single digit fleet growth for the next year. So where is that SFO growth gonna come from?

This is hopefully the final career decision I'll ever make, and I really want to make it an informed one. Thank you all!
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Old 10-21-2023, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Turbosina View Post
Thought I'd quit clogging up the "Alaska Hiring" thread so that the discussion could focus on hiring. Anyhow, I am fortunate enough to have CJOs at both shops, and will have to choose a class date soon. I am utterly torn between AS and SWA and thought I'd seek advice from you all.

AS's culture / vibe have always really appealed to me, and obviously the fact that you have a solid TA is a huge benefit. That speaks volumes to the (positive) state of the management/ employee group relationship at AS.

I'm looking for a place to hang my hat for the final 15 years of my career; I have zero desire to go fly widebodies. All of the good things I'd heard about AS are what compelled me to apply, and I loved what I heard on interview day. However, I have some key questions, because the decision isn't easy.

I live in the junior base for both carriers (SWA/OAK and AS/ SFO.) My #1 priority, by far, is scheduling flexibility. Upgrade time is also somewhat important, as I only have 15 yrs left in the game and would like to spend at least half of that time back in the left seat. Time to hold a line is also important, because reserve is a special kind of torture at my current shop.

So my key questions are:

• What does scheduling flexibility look like at AS? That is my #1 priority, by far, because I come from 9+ years at a carrier with zero flexibility. My buddies at SWA (mostly junior FOs) universally love SWA because they started with 15 days off on reserve (that's significantly better than the 12 days off at AS), and now that they hold lines, I've seen in detail how their bidding/ trading works. The ELITT system they have is kind of amazing, in that it's very easy to move stuff around and, for example, do most of your flying at the start or end of a month. Or you can bid a couple days of vacation, and if that vacation day touches an assigned trip, that trip is dropped. I can't tell you how incredible that is, considering the scheduling policies at my current shop.

What I've read on this forum, though, is that scheduling flexibility at AS is far less than what SWA has. I get that PBS is coming at AS, but we have PBS at my current shop and there is zero flexibility to move anything because everyone is max'ed out and we're permanently below min reserve staffing. I'm like the informal PBS help guy for my base and while I know the system inside out, I can't even get a single turn (!) picked up on our scheduling board when I put crazy money on it because everyone is working to 117 duty limits and min days off. So the whole point of my post is to understand how much flexibility your junior peeps have. (I won't be senior for a very long time, naturally.)

• How long for a new hire to hold a line in SFO?

• Are SFO lines packed with lots of redeyes?

• There's a lot of talk about SFO growth, but from the investor presentation, AS is planning low single digit fleet growth for the next year. So where is that SFO growth gonna come from?

Anyhow, sorry for all the questions, but this is hopefully the final career decision I'll ever make, and I really want to make it an informed one. Thank you all!
sfo has about 83 lines as of NOV and is growing to 125

ypull without a doubt get it right off the bat it’s the junior base for the foreseeable future

yes sfo has a lot of redeyes (well by a lot I mean in the winter it’s 4 daily JFK x2 EWR and MCO so no more than UA or any other big boy airline) summer is my like 7 a night they are not so bad you get use to them
reserve time is anyone’s guess 3-4 months as the churn will be at the bottom of sfo as everyone bids out

I really like it here SFO crews are great and super chill. It’s mostly virgin people so it’s a really good laid back vibe they’ll talk about the virgins days and how bad it is here but I digress
SFO for October was well staffed so with the new contract flexibility is good

flexibility is month to month cause the way the rules are written It’s all depended on staffing I’ve have good luck the past few months

as a junior person the lines you’ll get are 15-16 days off around 80-85 credits

mostly trans cons out of sfo but with more lines the flying is changing to 2 legs a day if are not going out east

I like it here having crew meals although repetitive is nice as a option and the flying is easy doing only 1-2

sfo now has a few 3 days that are 20 credits but they last day is brutal 4 legs up and down the coast but it’s a really high credit 3 day

sfo will stay about 125ines Is my guess till they see what the economy is doing next year so guys in sfo next year will get stuck in sfo is my guess as things may slow down so not bad spot for you

I didn’t proof read this so Godspeed to whoever reads it
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Old 10-21-2023, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Turbosina View Post
Thought I'd quit clogging up the "Alaska Hiring" thread so that the discussion could focus on hiring. Anyhow, I am fortunate enough to have CJOs at both shops, and will have to choose a class date soon. I am utterly torn between AS and SWA and thought I'd seek advice.

AS's culture / vibe have always really appealed to me, and your new TA is a huge benefit. That speaks to the (positive) state of the management/ employee relationship at AS.

I'm looking for a place to hang my hat for the final 15 years of my career; I have zero desire to go fly widebodies. All of the good things I'd heard about AS are what compelled me to apply, and I loved what I heard on interview day. However, this decision ain't easy.

I live in the junior base for both carriers (SWA/OAK and AS/SFO.) My #1 priority, by far, is scheduling flexibility. Upgrade time is also somewhat important, as I only have 15 yrs left in the game. Time to hold a line is also important, because reserve is a special kind of torture at my current shop.

So my questions are:

• What does scheduling flexibility look like at AS? That is my #1 priority, by far. My buddies at SWA (mostly junior FOs) universally love SWA because they started with 15 days off on reserve (that's significantly better than the 12 days off at AS), and now that they hold lines, I've seen in detail how their bidding/ trading works. The ELITT system they have is kind of amazing, in that it's very easy to move stuff around. Or you can bid a couple days of vacation, and if that vacation day touches an assigned trip, that trip is dropped. I can't tell you how incredible that is, considering the scheduling policies at my current shop.

What I've read on this forum, though, is that scheduling flexibility at AS is far less than what SWA has. I get that PBS is coming at AS, but we have PBS at my current shop and there is zero flexibility to move anything because everyone is max'ed out and we're permanently below min reserve staffing. I'm like the informal PBS help guy for my base and while I know the system inside out, I can't even get a single turn (!) picked up on our scheduling board because everyone is working to 117 duty limits and min days off. So the whole point of my post is to understand how much flexibility your junior peeps have.

• How long for a new hire to hold a line in SFO?

• Are SFO lines packed with lots of redeyes?

• There's a lot of talk about SFO growth, but from the investor presentation, AS is planning low single digit fleet growth for the next year. So where is that SFO growth gonna come from?

This is hopefully the final career decision I'll ever make, and I really want to make it an informed one. Thank you all!
Personally I think you'll have a great career at either carrier. AS has been great lately. That being said, schedule flexibility has never been a stand out high point during my time here. In fact since the 'Rona it has been a pain point. As much as I'd like to see you come to AS I'd hate to be misleading and say there was great schedule flexibility. Only to have you leave for SWA, when you share QOL stories with your buds already at SWA. A good friend of mine left for SWA around the same time I left for AS from SKYW. I called him 6 months to a year later. He was surprised I was able to hold reserve and wanted to know how I managed it. At SWA reserve goes SR. At least it did during 2019. That meant proper staffing to me. Since I've been at AS I do not feel like we have had proper staffing.

All that being said. I don't know much about SWA. I do feel like I wouldn't fit in well there. I feel like they rush a lot and I don't function well in that environment. That's a real me thing though. Also I've noticed things slowing down a bit over there. I'm guessing no one is trying to overachieve during contract negotiations. Also when the operation melted down I spoke with a lot of SWA crews that were out on the road for a long time. They were getting paid well for it. But it didn't seem very flexible.
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Old 10-21-2023, 09:54 PM
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What a lot of folks miss about AS schedule flexibility is that you can legally drop down to zero *if* other pilots pick up your trips.

Very few people do that, but it's a thing. Availability depends on seat and base, and also season because it only works if other pilots have some bandwidth in their schedule to pick stuff up.

I believe SWA is similar, and you may be able to drop to the company vice other pilots but you'd have to ask them.

Redeyes are a significant factor, some folks just don't like those. Personally I'd rather do a long redeye than a 3-4 leg day for similar credit.
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Old 10-21-2023, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
What a lot of folks miss about AS schedule flexibility is that you can legally drop down to zero *if* other pilots pick up your trips.

Very few people do that, but it's a thing. Availability depends on seat and base, and also season because it only works if other pilots have some bandwidth in their schedule to pick stuff up.

I believe SWA is similar, and you may be able to drop to the company vice other pilots but you'd have to ask them.

Redeyes are a significant factor, some folks just don't like those. Personally I'd rather do a long redeye than a 3-4 leg day for similar credit.
same or id rather do a redeye than a 7am out of the east coast

give me the MCO redeye out of sfo that leaves at 9:30 lands at 9:45 over the 7am out BOS or jfk that’s like 2:45 VAN body clock 🤢🤢
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Old 10-22-2023, 04:46 AM
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SWA/OAK guy here…the 2 recent former Alaska FOs I flew with both mentioned the lack of redeyes and schedule flexibility as top reasons they were very happy with the change. Not sure which base flies them but those 0200 ANC-PHX red eyes sound like a special brand of torture!

try to find someone from SWA who left for Alaska to get their opinion.
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Old 10-22-2023, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Smooth at FL450 View Post
SWA/OAK guy here…the 2 recent former Alaska FOs I flew with both mentioned the lack of redeyes and schedule flexibility as top reasons they were very happy with the change. Not sure which base flies them but those 0200 ANC-PHX red eyes sound like a special brand of torture!

try to find someone from SWA who left for Alaska to get their opinion.
But the real question is. Did you teach them how to bypass the bowed motoring function on the MAX?
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Old 10-22-2023, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
What a lot of folks miss about AS schedule flexibility is that you can legally drop down to zero *if* other pilots pick up your trips.

Very few people do that, but it's a thing. Availability depends on seat and base, and also season because it only works if other pilots have some bandwidth in their schedule to pick stuff up.

I believe SWA is similar, and you may be able to drop to the company vice other pilots but you'd have to ask them.

Redeyes are a significant factor, some folks just don't like those. Personally I'd rather do a long redeye than a 3-4 leg day for similar credit.
SWA can drop to zero if you can get someone to snag your trips as well.
You can duty down 4 days through the company if you can catch ELITT with a positive day.
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Old 10-22-2023, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GoodJet View Post
But the real question is. Did you teach them how to bypass the bowed motoring function on the MAX?
go onnnnnnnnnnnnnn...........
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Old 10-22-2023, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GoodJet View Post
But the real question is. Did you teach them how to bypass the bowed motoring function on the MAX?
That’d be a negative ghost rider
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