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Old 09-28-2023, 03:38 PM
  #1061  
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Originally Posted by KC135
What was said on the open mic? Not sure what youíre referring to? Is the company trustworthy? I donít think youíve ever had anything negative to say towards the company. If we had a better union we would of had a TA a long time ago?
union leadership basically said, without knowing the mic was on, that the pilot group is ignorant and doesnít understand NMB process.

when union leadership realized the oversight they quickly took down the audio and deleted it. Ask around on the fb feed or the several base specific fb groups - plenty of us heard it and were sorely disappointed.

when have I ever been positive towards management? Find a post? I work for management as a cog in the machine, I donít expect them to treat me well - been in this industry long enough to know that management can never be trusted. Iíve been plenty critical of management - just yesterday I told a new hire that one of the cons of working here is management ignores us on good days and antagonizes us on most days just look on the thread.

Iím critical of the union because I pay them upwards thousands of dollars a year - we pay more than any other airline in North America and probably the world. That is why I am not afraid to be critical of them.
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Old 09-28-2023, 06:16 PM
  #1062  
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Originally Posted by captnate702
Iím critical of the union because I pay them upwards thousands of dollars a year - we pay more than any other airline in North America and probably the world. That is why I am not afraid to be critical of them.
I have zero trust in the management group here, but with each passing day I get closer to having the same amount of trust in our union leadership. It seems that theyíve both decided they just canít work with each other, which is why weíre no closer to a contract today than we were years ago. All this despite paying, like you said, the highest union dues of any carrier. Iím not sure what our next step should be, but itís insanity to keep doing the same things over and over and hoping this time it will be different.
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Old 09-29-2023, 06:18 AM
  #1063  
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Originally Posted by SladeTin
I have zero trust in the management group here, but with each passing day I get closer to having the same amount of trust in our union leadership. It seems that theyíve both decided they just canít work with each other, which is why weíre no closer to a contract today than we were years ago. All this despite paying, like you said, the highest union dues of any carrier. Iím not sure what our next step should be, but itís insanity to keep doing the same things over and over and hoping this time it will be different.
I think that's a little over dramatic. We are letting the NMB process play out, clearly it doesn't fit in your timeline but this is the normal process.
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Old 09-29-2023, 07:58 AM
  #1064  
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Our union is about to be put on ice by the mediator because they walked out when the iron was hot, they walked out because they lack any effective negotiation skills and made the amateur error of starting too low. When a deal got close they realized they negotiated themselves into a concession, morons! You wanna know why theyíve been radio silent these past few weeks? Because theyíre scared sh!tless that the company will respond with a truthful email about how it went down. Itís time to pull the rug from under AR, heís mismanaged this egregiously.
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Old 09-29-2023, 09:35 AM
  #1065  
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Originally Posted by tom11011
I think that's a little over dramatic. We are letting the NMB process play out, clearly it doesn't fit in your timeline but this is the normal process.
Don't think it was over dramatic at all. I fully realize that the NMB process is a slow moving one, but the fact remains we canít even TA the training section. The process shouldnít be THAT slow. I think itís time for some fresh blood in the room and see if we can make any real progress.
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:22 AM
  #1066  
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Originally Posted by captnate702
union leadership basically said, without knowing the mic was on, that the pilot group is ignorant and doesn’t understand NMB process.

when union leadership realized the oversight they quickly took down the audio and deleted it. Ask around on the fb feed or the several base specific fb groups - plenty of us heard it and were sorely disappointed.
Ha well that comment is accurate, I've noticed the same thing with quite a few of the group. Also as far as the union dues and critiquing, I can understand your view. The good news is they haven't spent anywhere near as much as we thought so far, so you'll get that money back in the form of significantly less dues after the new contract. If there is a big pot leftover then the interest could bring down the future dues to well below what everyone else is paying. I'd rather overpay and have to much then have them run out of money. Yes they make mistakes but at least they aren't selling out like the last group and signing in a trash TA.


Originally Posted by SladeTin
Don't think it was over dramatic at all. I fully realize that the NMB process is a slow moving one, but the fact remains we can’t even TA the training section. The process shouldn’t be THAT slow. I think it’s time for some fresh blood in the room and see if we can make any real progress.
I don't understand why so many don't realize that is on the company not the union? The union is simply holding the line at industry standard. I don't think the best negotiators in the world could have TA'd any section unless they agree to below standard. It's not any more complicated than that when less than standard is being offered. But go ahead, vote in somebody else if you want when his term is done so we can get a nice industry bottom TA. Why would the company offer standard right now and double their cost? The company knows something is going to break in the economy within the next 6 months with rates suddenly this high and the list will keep growing.
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:36 AM
  #1067  
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Originally Posted by KC135
I don't understand why so many don't realize that is on the company not the union? The union is simply holding the line at industry standard. I don't think the best negotiators in the world could have TA'd any section unless they agree to below standard. It's not any more complicated than that when less than standard is being offered. But go ahead, vote in somebody else if you want when his term is done so we can get a nice industry bottom TA. Why would the company offer standard right now and double their cost? The company knows something is going to break in the economy within the next 6 months with rates suddenly this high and the list will keep growing.
I have to disagree. I think it’s on both the company and the union to make progress. I’ve heard too many stories lately from people I trust that is making me change my stance here. Starting to remind me much more of convincing politicians than people who actually have our best interest in mind. And something has been “about to break” in the economy for over a year now. When will that excuse end?
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Old 09-29-2023, 11:24 AM
  #1068  
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Originally Posted by KC135
Ha well that comment is accurate, I've noticed the same thing with quite a few of the group. Also as far as the union dues and critiquing, I can understand your view. The good news is they haven't spent anywhere near as much as we thought so far, so you'll get that money back in the form of significantly less dues after the new contract. If there is a big pot leftover then the interest could bring down the future dues to well below what everyone else is paying. I'd rather overpay and have to much then have them run out of money. Yes they make mistakes but at least they aren't selling out like the last group and signing in a trash TA.
you really think we are ever gonna see that money???? hahahahahahahaha... you are the most brainwashed union worshipper i have ever met. that money is never coming back to us.

and as far as the comment from the E Board: you think telling the pilot group that they are ignorant and too stupid to understand the NMB process is a good look?

our union doesn't even have a real lawyer which is probably why the union is unprepared during negotiations. how do you not understand that the only leverage we have is credible threat of self help and to have that threat you must win over the NMB. you think showing up unprepared is gonna help win over the NMB that management is the one delaying negotiations? how thick headed can you be? the only way to have credible threat of self help is if the NMB hints to management that release is a real possibility. we are probably further away from release than when NMB process started because we can't even get our sh*t together and come prepared and ready to go.


Originally Posted by KC135
I don't understand why so many don't realize that is on the company not the union? The union is simply holding the line at industry standard. I don't think the best negotiators in the world could have TA'd any section unless they agree to below standard. It's not any more complicated than that when less than standard is being offered. But go ahead, vote in somebody else if you want when his term is done so we can get a nice industry bottom TA. Why would the company offer standard right now and double their cost? The company knows something is going to break in the economy within the next 6 months with rates suddenly this high and the list will keep growing.
Well we should hire you KC for negotiations. All you have to do is grab the good stuff from Delta and United, copy and paste, print it out and we should have a contract! Why hasn't anybody thought of this before?? The NMB will totally agree that allegiant deserves Delta and United work rules, compensation, etc. and let us go on strike after a few months if management doesn't sign on the bottom line.

That is how negotiations with the NMB go right? or maybe, just maybe, the NMB mediator who was management at both spirit and frontier, doesn't necessarily think that allegiant and delta/united are peers - could that even be possible? but we fly the same airplanes so we deserve the same contract!

If you really think that the play is to just copy and paste united/delta contracts and then wait for management to sign or the NMB will release us then i've got a timeshare at swamp seeker resort in PGD to sell you. if that is AR's strategy then he just trying to further entrench himself as the mob boss of our little union.

Do you even know what is holding up the training sections? AR is asking for stuff that no one in the industry has - like the union being in charge of hiring instructors. but KC has all the answers
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Old 09-29-2023, 11:33 AM
  #1069  
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Originally Posted by CaptOblivious
Our union is about to be put on ice by the mediator because they walked out when the iron was hot, they walked out because they lack any effective negotiation skills and made the amateur error of starting too low. When a deal got close they realized they negotiated themselves into a concession, morons! You wanna know why theyíve been radio silent these past few weeks? Because theyíre scared sh!tless that the company will respond with a truthful email about how it went down. Itís time to pull the rug from under AR, heís mismanaged this egregiously.
i heard something similar: the union ended negotiations and left LAX when they realized they were getting too close to a TA. i don't why the union got cold feet about the TA. but when i asked around about why the union left early, no one from union leadership denied leaving early. i can't believe they have been so quiet, usually AR can't help himself. all i gotta say is that ppl on the line are frustrated. there needs to be some movement quick or else there will be a regime change when the elections come up a year from now.

my two cents: AR doesn't want too much progress because he wants to make sure he gets three more years as the mob boss. he thinks we are too ignorant to vote him out (he'll make up an excuse that if you don't vote for him then negotiations will get delayed, etc.) AR hasn't flown the line in years - he's not even current. he makes over half a mil year from our dues and spends $75k on audio equipment, a home office and mood lighting. he runs the union like a mob boss and uses my dues like a slush fund. but don't worry, the union files thousands of GRIEVANCES as if that is going to placate us.
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Old 09-29-2023, 11:37 AM
  #1070  
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Originally Posted by captnate702
i heard something similar: the union ended negotiations and left LAX when they realized they were getting too close to a TA. i don't why the union got cold feet about the TA. but when i asked around about why the union left early, no one from union leadership denied leaving early. i can't believe they have been so quiet, usually AR can't help himself. all i gotta say is that ppl on the line are frustrated. there needs to be some movement quick or else there will be a regime change when the elections come up a year from now.

my two cents: AR doesn't want too much progress because he wants to make sure he gets three more years as the mob boss. he thinks we are too ignorant to vote him out (he'll make up an excuse that if you don't vote for him then negotiations will get delayed, etc.) AR hasn't flown the line in years - he's not even current. he makes over half a mil year from our dues and spends $75k on audio equipment, a home office and mood lighting. he runs the union like a mob boss and uses my dues like a slush fund. but don't worry, the union files thousands of GRIEVANCES as if that is going to placate us.
He doesn't need to orchestrate a fake delay on the training section.....the normal course of events just wading through sections like scheduling will easily take three years. Probably some blame to go around both sides but Maury's not gonna budge on work rules 'till the bitter end.
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