Hiring Instructors
11-20-2018, 05:18 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Back in school.
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by j3cub
According to CBA, pay is the same. I doubt MD80 instructors made any more, unless they simply had more events. I'd imagine initially they did, bit as it dwindled down the 320 guys started picking up more work.
Originally Posted by G4er
We have a train by ridicule, unprofessional, egotistical training department. My first RFT after FCOM showed me this and it has been reinforced each time I’ve went back.
Originally Posted by ecam
Those of us who have been on the Airbus for a while have always said it. The AB training department is a fiefdom run by people trying to exert authority, power and ego. It had always been a case of "I'm going to prove i'm better/smarter than you" and "Haha you have to get past me if you want to keep your job". Training has always consisted of minutea that's mostly useless online and full of gotcha items. Most pilots I know dread coming to training and treat their job like its a 6 month employment contract because you never know. Most say they studied everything they were told to study then felt like they didn't study or told that. A lot seems to depend on the APD, what kind of day they are having, and whether they think you deserve it or not. It is all way too subjective. We need AQP here. But any reforms will be good. A shutdown by the FAA might bring useful change. Safety is degraded when the training culture is toxic and training feels like a punishment instead of a learning experience. That is what we have right now. Toxic culture.
Originally Posted by akulahunter
What we need is EXPERIENCED airbus peeps that do not have a terrible, combative, "I'm out to get you" or "I can prove I'm smarter than you" attitude... However we can achieve that, I'm all for it...
11-21-2018, 07:02 AM
#22
Swimmin' in da pool
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 444
Sad to see the perception of training hasn't changed. When I was there the feeling was that training/standards needed to be rigorous and demanding because we were an inexperienced gang operating old, poorly maintained equipment into hazardous locations with garbage support from maintenance, dispatch, management, etc.
Going to a culture so radically different, where training expectations were realistic and well-defined was eery at first and I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. Never happened; no surprises, no stress and failures are virtually unheard of. From what I hear it wasn't always that way and it took AQP to shift the mindset away from a hostile pass/fail culture. Not sure if it was the training or the environment, but the G4 pilots were among the best I ever flew with and saved the company's bacon on way too many occasions. Hopefully you guys get AQP soon and matters improve.
Going to a culture so radically different, where training expectations were realistic and well-defined was eery at first and I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. Never happened; no surprises, no stress and failures are virtually unheard of. From what I hear it wasn't always that way and it took AQP to shift the mindset away from a hostile pass/fail culture. Not sure if it was the training or the environment, but the G4 pilots were among the best I ever flew with and saved the company's bacon on way too many occasions. Hopefully you guys get AQP soon and matters improve.
11-21-2018, 07:58 AM
#23
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 733
Originally Posted by JustWatching
To say that our Airbus instructors or examiners are out to get people is ludicrous. While we certainly have some people instructing that have no business instructing and the program in general is chaotic, people do not fail the type ride for any reason other than their own mistakes.
There are certain people, as was alluded to above, that were likely to have issues during training, and they have. There are other people who just have a momentary lapse in judgement or skill and fail the ride. It’s a part 61 ride and requires 100% completion with no retrains. That’s not on the APD...
Now, we can talk about leadership and have a nice conversation about needed changes.
There are certain people, as was alluded to above, that were likely to have issues during training, and they have. There are other people who just have a momentary lapse in judgement or skill and fail the ride. It’s a part 61 ride and requires 100% completion with no retrains. That’s not on the APD...
Now, we can talk about leadership and have a nice conversation about needed changes.
Originally Posted by belliott
When I was there the pay was per the CBA however the PCH for a given event differed from the 80 program to the AB. 80 SITs paid 5.0 and an AB SIT paid 3.0... that is where the pay gap existed... may have changed since I left.
From my personal experience that was certainly not the case... the FCOM transition was difficult for everyone including the instructors... I know myself and others frequently made ourselves available to trainees who asked for extra help. I know that people have and will continue to speak poorly of me since my departure for having held a professional standard when people showed up with Jepps 2 revisions out of date, unshaven and not in business casual attire, and not remotely attempting to use the FCOM flows/procedures. Ego and ridicule have no place in the training atmosphere.
That wasn’t my experience at all... I have had students feel like they didn’t study enough (or the right material) and there were a few times when I let trainees know that their knowledge level for their given position was lacking but I don’t believe that the majority of the instructors bring toxicity to the training environment. Most of the minutia and “gotcha’s” introduced in the lessons weren’t there to flaunt that the instructor knew more than a trainee... inversely they were supposed to bring up good talking points/reminders of things we didn’t see on a day to day basis... YMMV given the different backgrounds/experience levels of instructors.
I think you will find if you prepare accordingly for each session, keep a positive attitude, and an open mind to learning a new language/airplane you’ll do just fine. I think there are some quite brilliant instructors who want nothing more than to see you succeed. The instructors are your best training advocate... if you put forth the effort they will give you all the help you need to be successful.
From my personal experience that was certainly not the case... the FCOM transition was difficult for everyone including the instructors... I know myself and others frequently made ourselves available to trainees who asked for extra help. I know that people have and will continue to speak poorly of me since my departure for having held a professional standard when people showed up with Jepps 2 revisions out of date, unshaven and not in business casual attire, and not remotely attempting to use the FCOM flows/procedures. Ego and ridicule have no place in the training atmosphere.
That wasn’t my experience at all... I have had students feel like they didn’t study enough (or the right material) and there were a few times when I let trainees know that their knowledge level for their given position was lacking but I don’t believe that the majority of the instructors bring toxicity to the training environment. Most of the minutia and “gotcha’s” introduced in the lessons weren’t there to flaunt that the instructor knew more than a trainee... inversely they were supposed to bring up good talking points/reminders of things we didn’t see on a day to day basis... YMMV given the different backgrounds/experience levels of instructors.
I think you will find if you prepare accordingly for each session, keep a positive attitude, and an open mind to learning a new language/airplane you’ll do just fine. I think there are some quite brilliant instructors who want nothing more than to see you succeed. The instructors are your best training advocate... if you put forth the effort they will give you all the help you need to be successful.
I've said this before and got a warm cup of shut the frick up from you guys but the problem is flight standards management. All of the problems with training here come from the top down. It is run by a bunch of guys with very little real world flying experience who think they are big fish in a little pond with big chips on their shoulders from past career issues. They have an attitude of prove yourself or get out when it should be let's make sure you're proficient on things you don't see often. They seem to like the power trip from holding a pilots pay check hostage. They write the curriculum instructors and APDs must follow. For example, doing engine failures during a go around this year on the PC. It is an important thing to know how to do and even practice in the sim but that should be training not jeopardy. It is nothing but ball busting. To claim we need to be tested on that under jeopardy is abusive. We could also talk about the APDs expectation that everyone should have rote memorized the 30 or so bulletins modifying our procedures. Asking specific numbers from memory on 30 temporary bulletins from is abusive. Or how about the harping this year on standard callouts? Everyone loves someone treating them like a child in the debrief because they said FL XXX blue instead of "set blue". Or same for hundreds of other unnecessary callouts we do at this airline that the others don't.
Yes our training culture here sucks. We test on things that that don't matter to 99% of every day line flying and beat people up over the 1% they never see. And it's not urban legend. Great pilots are failing check rides here over stupid ball busting gotcha hahaha crap. I feel lucky that I haven't yet. If we are going to stay on the archaic check ride system, then PCs should be plain vanilla. Like a type ride, except ability to retrain twice. Just test on the basics that are required by the FAA and put all the fancy stuff on the training day. That's reasonable.
AQP would fix all of this because it tests on line flying and real scenarios with objective grading not the subjective grading we currently have. But I will not hold my breath on AQP before I retire because the people I mentioned above would have to give up too much power and control.
11-21-2018, 08:58 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 145
On my RFT I literally got yelled at for calling for a control check before taxiing. It was the first RFT after the 7000 pages from FCOM came out that I self studied. The technique part of the FCOM said it was CA discretion to do it before taxiing and I thought we would have a short taxi. I pointed out in black and white in the book where it said I could do it. Got yelled at some more. I told him I didn’t like his tone and that to calm down. Yelled some more. All he would have had to say because we were in a training environment was. “Hey, we have noticed allot of pilots calling for this and it isn’t supposed to become SOP, I understand that it is CA discretion...”
Totally unprofessional.
That is how the training department is from a lot of guys I’ve talked to.
One guy told me about turning on the LS buttons for take off. Again it is in the technique manual. Yelled at, showed “instructor” where it is in the book. Yelled at, demeaned some more...
Many more stories could be shared....
Totally unprofessional.
That is how the training department is from a lot of guys I’ve talked to.
One guy told me about turning on the LS buttons for take off. Again it is in the technique manual. Yelled at, showed “instructor” where it is in the book. Yelled at, demeaned some more...
Many more stories could be shared....
11-21-2018, 09:05 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 145
I’ve never failed anything either, and if anything overstudy. Just very frustrated with the training, I feel the should just call it the Checking Department. Check to make sure you have self studied the 7000 pages I have yet to get training on.
11-21-2018, 01:43 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Position: AB
Posts: 292
Originally Posted by ecam
I don't think individual instructors and AQPs are out to get people for personal vendettas of some sort. I think they are trying hard to impress their bosses and keep their cushy training department jobs by being hardasses.
I've said this before and got a warm cup of shut the frick up from you guys but the problem is flight standards management. All of the problems with training here come from the top down. It is run by a bunch of guys with very little real world flying experience who think they are big fish in a little pond with big chips on their shoulders from past career issues. They have an attitude of prove yourself or get out when it should be let's make sure you're proficient on things you don't see often. They seem to like the power trip from holding a pilots pay check hostage. They write the curriculum instructors and APDs must follow. For example, doing engine failures during a go around this year on the PC. It is an important thing to know how to do and even practice in the sim but that should be training not jeopardy. It is nothing but ball busting. To claim we need to be tested on that under jeopardy is abusive. We could also talk about the APDs expectation that everyone should have rote memorized the 30 or so bulletins modifying our procedures. Asking specific numbers from memory on 30 temporary bulletins from is abusive. Or how about the harping this year on standard callouts? Everyone loves someone treating them like a child in the debrief because they said FL XXX blue instead of "set blue". Or same for hundreds of other unnecessary callouts we do at this airline that the others don't.
Yes our training culture here sucks. We test on things that that don't matter to 99% of every day line flying and beat people up over the 1% they never see. And it's not urban legend. Great pilots are failing check rides here over stupid ball busting gotcha hahaha crap. I feel lucky that I haven't yet. If we are going to stay on the archaic check ride system, then PCs should be plain vanilla. Like a type ride, except ability to retrain twice. Just test on the basics that are required by the FAA and put all the fancy stuff on the training day. That's reasonable.
AQP would fix all of this because it tests on line flying and real scenarios with objective grading not the subjective grading we currently have. But I will not hold my breath on AQP before I retire because the people I mentioned above would have to give up too jmuch power and control.
I've said this before and got a warm cup of shut the frick up from you guys but the problem is flight standards management. All of the problems with training here come from the top down. It is run by a bunch of guys with very little real world flying experience who think they are big fish in a little pond with big chips on their shoulders from past career issues. They have an attitude of prove yourself or get out when it should be let's make sure you're proficient on things you don't see often. They seem to like the power trip from holding a pilots pay check hostage. They write the curriculum instructors and APDs must follow. For example, doing engine failures during a go around this year on the PC. It is an important thing to know how to do and even practice in the sim but that should be training not jeopardy. It is nothing but ball busting. To claim we need to be tested on that under jeopardy is abusive. We could also talk about the APDs expectation that everyone should have rote memorized the 30 or so bulletins modifying our procedures. Asking specific numbers from memory on 30 temporary bulletins from is abusive. Or how about the harping this year on standard callouts? Everyone loves someone treating them like a child in the debrief because they said FL XXX blue instead of "set blue". Or same for hundreds of other unnecessary callouts we do at this airline that the others don't.
Yes our training culture here sucks. We test on things that that don't matter to 99% of every day line flying and beat people up over the 1% they never see. And it's not urban legend. Great pilots are failing check rides here over stupid ball busting gotcha hahaha crap. I feel lucky that I haven't yet. If we are going to stay on the archaic check ride system, then PCs should be plain vanilla. Like a type ride, except ability to retrain twice. Just test on the basics that are required by the FAA and put all the fancy stuff on the training day. That's reasonable.
AQP would fix all of this because it tests on line flying and real scenarios with objective grading not the subjective grading we currently have. But I will not hold my breath on AQP before I retire because the people I mentioned above would have to give up too jmuch power and control.
11-21-2018, 01:44 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Position: AB
Posts: 292
Originally Posted by G4er
On my RFT I literally got yelled at for calling for a control check before taxiing. It was the first RFT after the 7000 pages from FCOM came out that I self studied. The technique part of the FCOM said it was CA discretion to do it before taxiing and I thought we would have a short taxi. I pointed out in black and white in the book where it said I could do it. Got yelled at some more. I told him I didn’t like his tone and that to calm down. Yelled some more. All he would have had to say because we were in a training environment was. “Hey, we have noticed allot of pilots calling for this and it isn’t supposed to become SOP, I understand that it is CA discretion...”
Totally unprofessional.
That is how the training department is from a lot of guys I’ve talked to.
One guy told me about turning on the LS buttons for take off. Again it is in the technique manual. Yelled at, showed “instructor” where it is in the book. Yelled at, demeaned some more...
Many more stories could be shared....
Totally unprofessional.
That is how the training department is from a lot of guys I’ve talked to.
One guy told me about turning on the LS buttons for take off. Again it is in the technique manual. Yelled at, showed “instructor” where it is in the book. Yelled at, demeaned some more...
Many more stories could be shared....
11-21-2018, 04:11 PM
#28
Voice of Reason
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Uncomfortable
Posts: 481
Originally Posted by belliott
I think you will find if you prepare accordingly for each session, keep a positive attitude, and an open mind to learning a new language/airplane you’ll do just fine. I think there are some quite brilliant instructors who want nothing more than to see you succeed. The instructors are your best training advocate... if you put forth the effort they will give you all the help you need to be successful.
With that being said... It has definitely not been my experience that the instructors (as a whole) want nothing more than for me to succeed. If anything, most have been much more interested in minutia or adherence to whatever the training flavor of the day is than actually trying to teach me anything. In initial Bus training I found myself walking the instructor through system schematics and actually calling the training captain out on something he was teaching that was incorrect (and after arguing with me and others in the class for 10 minutes came back and admitted he was wrong).
I believe (from a small portion of my experience and a preponderance of stories from the line) we have a handful of exceptional guys/gals in the training department who have solid knowledge, good attitudes and want the students to succeed. We also have a large group of peeps who are either combative, straight up Dbags, have no propensity for instructing, no experience or are so ingrained in just doing sims that they forget that you don't deal with the minutia everyday and are flabbergasted that you wouldn't know something that they see multiple times a week....
11-22-2018, 06:52 AM
#29
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 733
Originally Posted by JustWatching
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, but I’m not sure if the problem lies with Flight Standards / Flight training upper management or rests solely on the fleet manager and training captain.
11-22-2018, 09:47 AM
#30
New Hire
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 2
Training
Good morning,
This forum thing is new to me but as it keeps being brought to my attention, I figured perhaps its a great way to open new lines of communication.
There is a lot of information in here so I will attempt to address as much as I can before the family gives me the sideways glare. The perception of the training department is bothersome, so many things have improved and yet there is so much left to work on, as it should be. The day you stop striving for better is the day you should walk away. I keep reading that AQP will be the solution and as a training system it is a great one, however, it is highly dependent on the calibration of check pilots and instructors; Without them the program will most certainly fail. Ecam, AQP will be here, and rest assured it is not delayed on the accounts of my alleged quest for power. Most of the comments in here refer to issues with the people, not the program. My concern with this is the feedback I get on a daily basis is how great the instructors are. Instructors "yelling during an RFT", APD's "out to get people" have not been brought to my attention. There are always two sides of a story and the point is, if this is happening let me hear your side through official channels. Let's look in to the situation so we can correct it and keep working towards what we all want. It does not matter where we are today, or where we want to go, everyone deserves to show up to training and be treated like a professional. I strongly believe that we have a fantastic group of instructors and check airman who are passionate about teaching and truly care about this company and its pilot group. That being said, if there needs to be a re-calibration of expectations, then please step up and let me know the when, where, and who. Be part of the solution and although this is a great place to vent, it doesn't drive change or help fix anything.
Finally, I want to state that I am proud of this pilot group, I agree that the G4 crew members are some of the best in the industry and I am thankful and humbled to be associated with them. If anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so at any time. I would like to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving, enjoy your families, if you are flying be safe and as Mr. Burgundy would say, "keep it classy Allegiant".
Thank you
This forum thing is new to me but as it keeps being brought to my attention, I figured perhaps its a great way to open new lines of communication.
There is a lot of information in here so I will attempt to address as much as I can before the family gives me the sideways glare. The perception of the training department is bothersome, so many things have improved and yet there is so much left to work on, as it should be. The day you stop striving for better is the day you should walk away. I keep reading that AQP will be the solution and as a training system it is a great one, however, it is highly dependent on the calibration of check pilots and instructors; Without them the program will most certainly fail. Ecam, AQP will be here, and rest assured it is not delayed on the accounts of my alleged quest for power. Most of the comments in here refer to issues with the people, not the program. My concern with this is the feedback I get on a daily basis is how great the instructors are. Instructors "yelling during an RFT", APD's "out to get people" have not been brought to my attention. There are always two sides of a story and the point is, if this is happening let me hear your side through official channels. Let's look in to the situation so we can correct it and keep working towards what we all want. It does not matter where we are today, or where we want to go, everyone deserves to show up to training and be treated like a professional. I strongly believe that we have a fantastic group of instructors and check airman who are passionate about teaching and truly care about this company and its pilot group. That being said, if there needs to be a re-calibration of expectations, then please step up and let me know the when, where, and who. Be part of the solution and although this is a great place to vent, it doesn't drive change or help fix anything.
Finally, I want to state that I am proud of this pilot group, I agree that the G4 crew members are some of the best in the industry and I am thankful and humbled to be associated with them. If anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so at any time. I would like to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving, enjoy your families, if you are flying be safe and as Mr. Burgundy would say, "keep it classy Allegiant".
Thank you
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