Spirit And management working cohesively
08-25-2020, 08:18 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by Losamigos
Same with Frontier now..
I still wish the powers that be would get together and negotiate some sort of furlough mitigation agreement. I understand that no furloughs might be too tough a deal to get done, but some sort of furlough mitigation agreement should absolutely get done imo - even if it is just extending 45 hr ETO lines with the cost savings going directly to furlough mitigation like NK and F9. Then if CARES 2 happens like EXCO keeps saying is gonna happen, then we can tear it up and get back to our regular lines.
Also, does anybody know what Frontier's min guarantee is for a line holder? I thought it was 75 but I could be wrong.
Kudos to Frontier and Spirit and their Unions for getting these done. I'm sure their junior pilots will be forever grateful.
08-25-2020, 08:35 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,939
Originally Posted by captnate702
I was surprised that Frontier's COLA (their version of an ETO) is for a 35 hour line... I thought our 45 hr option was below industry standard, but in reality is above average for ULCCs at this point.
I still wish the powers that be would get together and negotiate some sort of furlough mitigation agreement. I understand that no furloughs might be too tough a deal to get done, but some sort of furlough mitigation agreement should absolutely get done imo - even if it is just extending 45 hr ETO lines with the cost savings going directly to furlough mitigation like NK and F9. Then if CARES 2 happens like EXCO keeps saying is gonna happen, then we can tear it up and get back to our regular lines.
Also, does anybody know what Frontier's min guarantee is for a line holder? I thought it was 75 but I could be wrong.
Kudos to Frontier and Spirit and their Unions for getting these done. I'm sure their junior pilots will be forever grateful.
I still wish the powers that be would get together and negotiate some sort of furlough mitigation agreement. I understand that no furloughs might be too tough a deal to get done, but some sort of furlough mitigation agreement should absolutely get done imo - even if it is just extending 45 hr ETO lines with the cost savings going directly to furlough mitigation like NK and F9. Then if CARES 2 happens like EXCO keeps saying is gonna happen, then we can tear it up and get back to our regular lines.
Also, does anybody know what Frontier's min guarantee is for a line holder? I thought it was 75 but I could be wrong.
Kudos to Frontier and Spirit and their Unions for getting these done. I'm sure their junior pilots will be forever grateful.
08-25-2020, 11:10 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by tom11011
It's difficult to agree to anything with so many prior outstanding issues needing addressed first.
Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.
If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.
Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.
08-25-2020, 11:23 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,939
Originally Posted by captnate702
That's total garbage. When mass furloughs are on the line during the biggest catastrophe in the history of our industry, the priority has to be protecting jobs. That is the most fundamental reason for having organized labor and paying dues. Protecting jobs must always get a free pass to the front of the line. If you get terminated, does your termination case have to go to the back of the line so the "prior outstanding issues needing addressed first" can get resolved? H#ll no. What we are talking about here is potentially 10-20% of our dues paying members being kicked to the street. Saving their jobs has to be the priority. I don't think you really meant what you wrote: that avoiding furloughs cannot be addressed until the other arbitrations (what was the recent one, VFN arbitration right) can be resolved. That's not word for word what you wrote, but that is what you are saying and that is garbage if you truly believe that. Comparing a VFN arbitration to protecting 100 jobs and keeping 100 members off the street then you don't the first thing about what strong organized labor groups are built on.
Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.
If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.
Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.
Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.
If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.
Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.
08-25-2020, 11:33 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,269
Originally Posted by tom11011
In your view, should we abandon seniority to prevent furlough?
I don’t recall him/her saying anything like that. I think he’s saying he wants some form of mitigation, whether that be like your peers at Frontier or Spirit, he doesn’t care but something needs to be done in a time like this and the union and company should put aside their differences to try and help the families that will inevitably be harmed and possibly destroyed by a furlough.
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08-25-2020, 11:37 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,939
Originally Posted by TrojanCMH
I don’t recall him/her saying anything like that. I think he’s saying he wants some form of mitigation, whether that be like your peers at Frontier or Spirit, he doesn’t care but something needs to be done in a time like this and the union and company should put aside their differences to try and help the families that will inevitably be harmed and possibly destroyed by a furlough.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
08-25-2020, 11:48 AM
#9
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
Originally Posted by captnate702
That's total garbage. When mass furloughs are on the line during the biggest catastrophe in the history of our industry, the priority has to be protecting jobs. That is the most fundamental reason for having organized labor and paying dues. Protecting jobs must always get a free pass to the front of the line. If you get terminated, does your termination case have to go to the back of the line so the "prior outstanding issues needing addressed first" can get resolved? H#ll no. What we are talking about here is potentially 10-20% of our dues paying members being kicked to the street. Saving their jobs has to be the priority. I don't think you really meant what you wrote: that avoiding furloughs cannot be addressed until the other arbitrations (what was the recent one, VFN arbitration right) can be resolved. That's not word for word what you wrote, but that is what you are saying and that is garbage if you truly believe that. Comparing a VFN arbitration to protecting 100 jobs and keeping 100 members off the street then you don't the first thing about what strong organized labor groups are built on.
Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.
If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.
Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.
Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.
If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.
Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.
08-25-2020, 12:25 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by FreshWater
Hello management. Not going to happen. You had your way squandering millions on the swamp, wiping your a$$’s with our contract. That’s coming out of your pockets. Not ours.
And no, I'm definitely not looking to furlough out of senior - of course not. I'm just hoping that we get the option for furlough mitigation like our peers. I'd like to see some sort of voluntary ETO program with a 1:1 so every senior volunteer mitigates the furlough of a junior pilot (F9's current agreement); or where the Union and Company agree that all cost savings due to voluntary ETOs would directly offset the need to furlough (Spirit's agreement). If there was a furlough mitigation agreement with purely voluntary participation and it saved even ONE pilot from hitting the street that would absolutely be worth it imo.
