737 vs 320 for New Hire
#171
Arado, that was bad piloting technique on both events and you know it. Please don’t associate crappy piloting with the airplane. Might as well blame AF447 on the airplane too then.
FlyDubai crash required the pilots to FLY the airplane since TOGA is always a manual go around. They got disoriented, plain and simple. I’ve done plenty of those in crap weather and while it’s a handful, it’s nothing we don’t practice in the sim every 9 months.
Lion Air was basically unreliable airspeed/AOA with runaway trim... the right course of action would be to to disable the AP and regular trim using the cutout switches. In fact the prior crew in the prior flight did just that when they encountered the same situation. Yes it was also a crap situation but not unrecoverable.
Bottom line, both fleets have had plenty of crashes that could have been prevented with good piloting and/or CRM, and not due to airplane design.
Speaking of trim and AF447, a major contributor to the crash was the fact that the auto trim ended up trimming the THS full nose up, and would have required at least 30 seconds of full nose down side stick to undo the out of trim situation. Not exactly confidence-inspiring on the part of Airbus...
Oh, btw. I just flew our newest Max last night. Speed trim worked great, gave us a nice smooth flight. It kicked in plenty. Nice quiet cockpit too. ;-)
FlyDubai crash required the pilots to FLY the airplane since TOGA is always a manual go around. They got disoriented, plain and simple. I’ve done plenty of those in crap weather and while it’s a handful, it’s nothing we don’t practice in the sim every 9 months.
Lion Air was basically unreliable airspeed/AOA with runaway trim... the right course of action would be to to disable the AP and regular trim using the cutout switches. In fact the prior crew in the prior flight did just that when they encountered the same situation. Yes it was also a crap situation but not unrecoverable.
Bottom line, both fleets have had plenty of crashes that could have been prevented with good piloting and/or CRM, and not due to airplane design.
Speaking of trim and AF447, a major contributor to the crash was the fact that the auto trim ended up trimming the THS full nose up, and would have required at least 30 seconds of full nose down side stick to undo the out of trim situation. Not exactly confidence-inspiring on the part of Airbus...
Oh, btw. I just flew our newest Max last night. Speed trim worked great, gave us a nice smooth flight. It kicked in plenty. Nice quiet cockpit too. ;-)
If you like your 73, more power to you (am being honest. Not sarcastic). I had an issue with the mighty MAX out of BOS, it was weight restricted.
I'd rather sit in an airplane that has a space ship like feeling and let's me enjoy 8 hours of work with the least amount of pain possible. I don't need anything that makes me feel more manly. Same reason I don't like loud pipes. If you do and have to let your neighbors know about it. Cool.
#172
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 46
I was attacking your moronic argument associating bad piloting in two instances and putting it on the airplane. But whatever. Like the other poster said, you know damn well it was bad piloting.
#173
#174
Arado, that was bad piloting technique on both events and you know it. Please don’t associate crappy piloting with the airplane. Might as well blame AF447 on the airplane too then.
FlyDubai crash required the pilots to FLY the airplane since TOGA is always a manual go around. They got disoriented, plain and simple. I’ve done plenty of those in crap weather and while it’s a handful, it’s nothing we don’t practice in the sim every 9 months.
Lion Air was basically unreliable airspeed/AOA with runaway trim... the right course of action would be to to disable the AP and regular trim using the cutout switches. In fact the prior crew in the prior flight did just that when they encountered the same situation. Yes it was also a crap situation but not unrecoverable.
Bottom line, both fleets have had plenty of crashes that could have been prevented with good piloting and/or CRM, and not due to airplane design.
Speaking of trim and AF447, a major contributor to the crash was the fact that the auto trim ended up trimming the THS full nose up, and would have required at least 30 seconds of full nose down side stick to undo the out of trim situation. Not exactly confidence-inspiring on the part of Airbus...
Oh, btw. I just flew our newest Max last night. Speed trim worked great, gave us a nice smooth flight. It kicked in plenty. Nice quiet cockpit too. ;-)
FlyDubai crash required the pilots to FLY the airplane since TOGA is always a manual go around. They got disoriented, plain and simple. I’ve done plenty of those in crap weather and while it’s a handful, it’s nothing we don’t practice in the sim every 9 months.
Lion Air was basically unreliable airspeed/AOA with runaway trim... the right course of action would be to to disable the AP and regular trim using the cutout switches. In fact the prior crew in the prior flight did just that when they encountered the same situation. Yes it was also a crap situation but not unrecoverable.
Bottom line, both fleets have had plenty of crashes that could have been prevented with good piloting and/or CRM, and not due to airplane design.
Speaking of trim and AF447, a major contributor to the crash was the fact that the auto trim ended up trimming the THS full nose up, and would have required at least 30 seconds of full nose down side stick to undo the out of trim situation. Not exactly confidence-inspiring on the part of Airbus...
Oh, btw. I just flew our newest Max last night. Speed trim worked great, gave us a nice smooth flight. It kicked in plenty. Nice quiet cockpit too. ;-)
Do we know for certain that the Lion Air crash was due to bad piloting? Is it bad piloting if you don't fully know your airplane?
What about Flydubai? I know those pilots were pushing a long day, how did they cause a nose trim dive?
The fact that Boeing did not include MCAS in their operating manuals on the MAX does not sound very confident either. I really would like to know whether the FAA knew about MCAS and if they agreed/allow to exclude that information from their operators. We all know that the FAA and Boeing never get too (cough lithium batteries) cozy....
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Arado
MCAS is just another function of the Speed Trim. If MCAS senses a low speed condition it will trim nose down. Well, with unreliable AOA and airspeed that’s what it did. The crew prior to the accident crew did the right thing and disabled the trim when the MCAS started trimming nose down. No more, no less. Don’t fall for the Lion Air propaganda that Boeing screwed the pooch. No. Lion Air screwed the pooch by sending what should have been an unairworthy aircraft into service. And even with all that, the accident crew could have recovered by disabling the trim with the cutout switches.
It was a runaway trim scenario as a result of the unreliable AOA. And we train for that every nine months, no matter what fleet we’re on. Maybe Lion Air didn’t train that. I don’t know.
FlyDubai was a classic case of a full power TOGA after a long duty day while trimming almost full nose down, then getting completely disoriented. Pilot error.
I also read “Understanding AF447” and it’s clear that the author blames the pilots way before he blames the aircraft. And yet he does allude to the fact that the auto trim contributed to the lack of recovery by trimming full nose up.
Bottom line... I’ll fly whatever gets me the best QOL. Today that happens to be the 737 left seat which allows me to drive to work. And it’s a damn fine airplane, well built albeit with some old technology, but thats what I love about it. Nothing manly about it, I just love my ride.
No doubt I’d be more comfy in an Airbus and if it got me better QOL I’d be on it today praising its qualities too.
Every aircraft has its pluses and minuses.
MCAS is just another function of the Speed Trim. If MCAS senses a low speed condition it will trim nose down. Well, with unreliable AOA and airspeed that’s what it did. The crew prior to the accident crew did the right thing and disabled the trim when the MCAS started trimming nose down. No more, no less. Don’t fall for the Lion Air propaganda that Boeing screwed the pooch. No. Lion Air screwed the pooch by sending what should have been an unairworthy aircraft into service. And even with all that, the accident crew could have recovered by disabling the trim with the cutout switches.
It was a runaway trim scenario as a result of the unreliable AOA. And we train for that every nine months, no matter what fleet we’re on. Maybe Lion Air didn’t train that. I don’t know.
FlyDubai was a classic case of a full power TOGA after a long duty day while trimming almost full nose down, then getting completely disoriented. Pilot error.
I also read “Understanding AF447” and it’s clear that the author blames the pilots way before he blames the aircraft. And yet he does allude to the fact that the auto trim contributed to the lack of recovery by trimming full nose up.
Bottom line... I’ll fly whatever gets me the best QOL. Today that happens to be the 737 left seat which allows me to drive to work. And it’s a damn fine airplane, well built albeit with some old technology, but thats what I love about it. Nothing manly about it, I just love my ride.
No doubt I’d be more comfy in an Airbus and if it got me better QOL I’d be on it today praising its qualities too.
Every aircraft has its pluses and minuses.
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 854
I would happily put up with the noise, cramped cockpit. THat's not why it sucks so much. It's just an annoying airplane. 95% of people I've flown with that have flown both agree. Most people on the 737 ***** and moan about it. No one *****es about the bus. It's mostly that it's a non intuitive outdated crap system. High approach speeds ect. Sorry it has to be explained to you since you've flown both. These discussions will continue and it will always be 73 people on the defense vs the other way around. It will remain that way for a reason.
#180
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 271
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