A350
03-18-2019, 08:13 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,117
Originally Posted by drinksonme
Fail comment. You make an assumption that can be verified as completely wrong in about 30 seconds.
It’s still at the AA training center and currently as I look at it, up and running with Delta crew inside.
BTW....the Delta 350 instructors are making huge bank. This is TDY for them the whole time they are gone from ATL. Being paid huge overage
It’s still at the AA training center and currently as I look at it, up and running with Delta crew inside.
BTW....the Delta 350 instructors are making huge bank. This is TDY for them the whole time they are gone from ATL. Being paid huge overage
03-18-2019, 08:20 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 713
Originally Posted by Brillo
I am fairly certain we got a smoking deal on those 787's. I remember Vasu Raja (VP of Network) discussing something like this on a "Tell me why" last year. Not the exact verbiage, but it was a question along the lines of why don't we replace worn out, less efficient 767's with a more efficient plane like a 787. His answer was that even though the older plane was less efficient, it was paid for. When you look at costs, there's day-to-day operating cost, and there's the initial purchase cost. Too much of one could offset the other. Then several months later we announced that we are replacing 767's with 787's. That makes me believe (hope) that the initial price we paid was so low as to make it worth putting these new planes on those routes.
But I'm just a pilot. It does what it's told.
But I'm just a pilot. It does what it's told.
Vasu said later on (IIRC) that at the rate we got the 788’s it was a no brainer. I think we scored big time with the order.
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03-18-2019, 08:25 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 713
A350
Originally Posted by AAL24
We don’t have nearly enough 787s on order. Count up all the 772s, 767s, and 330s and you can see the numbers don’t add up. Unless the long term plan is 321 Neos to Europe, 737 Max to Central America, and further farming out of long haul flying to JV partners.
Completely agreed. Second hand story from an almost reliable source was that we were waiting to see all the operating data and performance in service of the -10. It makes sense as the commonality b/w the -9 and -10 is high; I think it’s a perfect range/configuration match for replacing our older 772’s, not considering cargo. But there’s “no money in cargo...”
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03-18-2019, 09:47 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,450
Originally Posted by HiFlyer992
I know this was abandoned by the company within the last couple years, but has anyone heard any rumors of beyond 2022 or 23 that American will take another look at the A350 acquisition? They already have a sim they fill with Delta pilots.
As for getting the 350's in the future I don't think it will ever happen. Heard that the 350's aren't really holding true to the numbers and savings that they advertised while the 787's truly are. American is all about squeezing cheap out of everything.
You probably won't see the 350's ever at American. Which is to bad because it looks like a sweet machine.
03-18-2019, 10:49 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by griff312
A little back story I heard, but it may not be 100% accurate: When the Boeing vs Bombardier legal fight was going on, regarding Boeing petitioning for an import tariff against the C series being sold to Delta, Airbus saved the day by taking over 51% of the C series, rebranding it the A220, thus skirting around the fees. Delta, in disgust with Boeing, dumped all of their 787 options and replaced them with A350 options. AA was able to pick up those 787 options on the cheap, and canceled all options for the 350. That's the way I've heard it, at least...
Not to derail, but I heard a rumor on the jumpseat the other day that Embraer made a deal with Parker to replace the E-190's with E-195 E2's. Although I understand the 190's were to be parked. First I've heard of that. Anyone hear likewise? If true, I hope they go on group 2, and get rid of that group 1 scale.
Not to derail, but I heard a rumor on the jumpseat the other day that Embraer made a deal with Parker to replace the E-190's with E-195 E2's. Although I understand the 190's were to be parked. First I've heard of that. Anyone hear likewise? If true, I hope they go on group 2, and get rid of that group 1 scale.
03-18-2019, 05:52 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,093
Originally Posted by Brillo
I am fairly certain we got a smoking deal on those 787's. I remember Vasu Raja (VP of Network) discussing something like this on a "Tell me why" last year. Not the exact verbiage, but it was a question along the lines of why don't we replace worn out, less efficient 767's with a more efficient plane like a 787. His answer was that even though the older plane was less efficient, it was paid for. When you look at costs, there's day-to-day operating cost, and there's the initial purchase cost. Too much of one could offset the other. Then several months later we announced that we are replacing 767's with 787's. That makes me believe (hope) that the initial price we paid was so low as to make it worth putting these new planes on those routes.
But I'm just a pilot. It does what it's told.
But I'm just a pilot. It does what it's told.
Our 767's were just under 20 years old when they signed the 787 order. At 20 years, metal airframe upkeep costs start to skyrocket exponentially. This isn't a problem for freight carriers because the purchase price is so low and they don't fly them much, so they have low indirect costs. (You might notice they cycle out most of our aircraft at 20 years)
Vasu said they needed to spend $20m on each 767 just to retrofit the interiors and bring them inline with the rest of our int'l product offerings. Now add in the increased inspection costs as time went on, plus potentially higher operating costs (on longer routes) and combine that with used 767 prices in an upward trend due to Amazon (and others) expanding their air freight fleet, combined with Boeing desperate to kill off Airbus orders....basically a perfect storm. IIRC the estimated cost of our 787s was in the neighborhood of $100m a copy...so for 20% of the purchase cost just sunk into retrofits (plus the airframe had value - I have no idea but at least $10m) we could have a brand new airplane.
Canceling the A350 cost them $50 million in cash. They bought the 787-9s and leased the 787-8s.
These newer aircraft with carbon fiber fuselages don't have the same airframe longevity issues as do the metal ones. Think about a fiberglass boat - it can be left in the sun for decades and still retains its strength.
03-25-2019, 09:06 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by Name User
The terms you are looking for are "direct" and "indirect" operating costs. Monthly lease and insurance are all indirect costs and are fixed. Direct costs are things like fuel/oil/parts etc are direct operating costs that are variable depending on how much you fly.
Our 767's were just under 20 years old when they signed the 787 order. At 20 years, metal airframe upkeep costs start to skyrocket exponentially. This isn't a problem for freight carriers because the purchase price is so low and they don't fly them much, so they have low indirect costs. (You might notice they cycle out most of our aircraft at 20 years)
Vasu said they needed to spend $20m on each 767 just to retrofit the interiors and bring them inline with the rest of our int'l product offerings. Now add in the increased inspection costs as time went on, plus potentially higher operating costs (on longer routes) and combine that with used 767 prices in an upward trend due to Amazon (and others) expanding their air freight fleet, combined with Boeing desperate to kill off Airbus orders....basically a perfect storm. IIRC the estimated cost of our 787s was in the neighborhood of $100m a copy...so for 20% of the purchase cost just sunk into retrofits (plus the airframe had value - I have no idea but at least $10m) we could have a brand new airplane.
Canceling the A350 cost them $50 million in cash. They bought the 787-9s and leased the 787-8s.
These newer aircraft with carbon fiber fuselages don't have the same airframe longevity issues as do the metal ones. Think about a fiberglass boat - it can be left in the sun for decades and still retains its strength.
Our 767's were just under 20 years old when they signed the 787 order. At 20 years, metal airframe upkeep costs start to skyrocket exponentially. This isn't a problem for freight carriers because the purchase price is so low and they don't fly them much, so they have low indirect costs. (You might notice they cycle out most of our aircraft at 20 years)
Vasu said they needed to spend $20m on each 767 just to retrofit the interiors and bring them inline with the rest of our int'l product offerings. Now add in the increased inspection costs as time went on, plus potentially higher operating costs (on longer routes) and combine that with used 767 prices in an upward trend due to Amazon (and others) expanding their air freight fleet, combined with Boeing desperate to kill off Airbus orders....basically a perfect storm. IIRC the estimated cost of our 787s was in the neighborhood of $100m a copy...so for 20% of the purchase cost just sunk into retrofits (plus the airframe had value - I have no idea but at least $10m) we could have a brand new airplane.
Canceling the A350 cost them $50 million in cash. They bought the 787-9s and leased the 787-8s.
These newer aircraft with carbon fiber fuselages don't have the same airframe longevity issues as do the metal ones. Think about a fiberglass boat - it can be left in the sun for decades and still retains its strength.
We don’t have nearly enough 787s on order. Count up all the 772s, 767s, and 330s and you can see the numbers don’t add up. Unless the long term plan is 321 Neos to Europe, 737 Max to Central America, and further farming out of long haul flying to JV partners.
Bingo! We will not be flying A-350s at American Airlines.
Last edited by Godzilla; 03-25-2019 at 09:17 AM. Reason: addition
03-31-2019, 05:06 PM
#18
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Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by drinksonme
Fail comment. You make an assumption that can be verified as completely wrong in about 30 seconds.
It’s still at the AA training center and currently as I look at it, up and running with Delta crew inside.
BTW....the Delta 350 instructors are making huge bank. This is TDY for them the whole time they are gone from ATL. Being paid huge overage
It’s still at the AA training center and currently as I look at it, up and running with Delta crew inside.
BTW....the Delta 350 instructors are making huge bank. This is TDY for them the whole time they are gone from ATL. Being paid huge overage
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