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-   -   The New Envoy? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/122363-new-envoy.html)

ag386 06-14-2019 06:48 AM

The New Envoy?
 
https://images.app.goo.gl/JPTzrRumjZgL5Cva9

FlyyGuyy 06-14-2019 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2836562)
https://images.app.goo.gl/JPTzrRumjZgL5Cva9

Please explain?

ag386 06-14-2019 08:45 AM


Originally Posted by FlyyGuyy (Post 2836620)
Please explain?

American seems to have turned into one big Envoy over the past years.

Al Czervik 06-14-2019 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2836634)
American seems to have turned into one big Envoy over the past years.

“Seems?????”

1Taco 06-14-2019 11:44 AM

He’s salty because he got fired from Envoy. So he attacks AA or Envoy anyway he can. Even if it includes using “airlinegeeks.com” to TRY to prove a point.

dvtpilot 06-15-2019 03:49 PM

You should hear about what management just did to it’s largest wholly owned today!

You’d think they would learn a bigger stick isn’t going to work after the mechanics but I guess not. I hope the APA is truly ready for a fight.

Varsity 06-16-2019 02:21 AM


Originally Posted by dvtpilot (Post 2837368)
You should hear about what management just did to it’s largest wholly owned today!

You’d think they would learn a bigger stick isn’t going to work after the mechanics but I guess not. I hope the APA is truly ready for a fight.

Signed a deal and backed out days later.

Good luck AA.

MD-11Loader 06-16-2019 02:50 AM

June 15th 2019
Fellow Pilots,

On Tuesday I signed an Agreement in Principle, along with the Envoy Senior Labor Relations Counsel and management's lead negotiator, to secure a comprehensive compensation improvement package for the pilots at Envoy. The Agreement in Principle was reached following a day of intense negotiations and was predicated on previous negotiating meetings. In preparing for the final round of negotiations it was made clear that neither the MEC, nor the pilots at Envoy, would accept any deal which left us lagging in compensation or had concessions attached to compensation improvements.

Once an Agreement in Principle is signed, the significant terms of an agreement are in place and the negotiating process is essentially over, with the tenets of the deal in place. The next step is drafting and editing contract language implementing the essential terms of the agreement. Sometimes this drafting process takes time, however Envoy management seemed determined to alleviate the mounting pressure they are experiencing to increase compensation and quality of life at Envoy due to the recent ratification of pay rate increases at Piedmont, as well as the PSA deal that was inked in early April. As such, we expected a language pass to be presented to us quickly. After the Agreement in Principle was signed, I called an MEC meeting via teleconference for Wednesday night in anticipation that draft contract language would be prepared and ready for evaluation by the MEC.

On Wednesday, the Company sent their first language pass derived from the Agreement in Principle that was signed by both parties on Tuesday. The language arrived less than two hours prior to the MEC teleconference, so there was not adequate time to thoroughly review and make technical corrections to the language reflecting our agreement prior to the teleconference. During the teleconference I updated the MEC on the progress of negotiations. Although the Agreement in Principle doesn't provide every provision we were seeking, it is a document that we found satisfactory and agreed to, and one that I believe the MEC would ratify.

The Agreement in Principle that Envoy management and your MEC Chairman agreed to includes many positive provisions for the pilots at Envoy without concessions. Some of the highlights are below:

Pay rates would be increased to a level slightly higher than those at PSA with retroactivity to May 15.
Pay-out upon flow through or retirement of accrued sick banks
Improvements to Reserve work rules which provide increased time off and more predictability
A reduction of pilot contribution to health care costs
Several Letters of Intent and agreements including Grievance Settlements which would provide a remedy for the affected pilots
All the recent progress came to a screeching halt late on Friday afternoon.

On Thursday, the MEC Officers, Contract Compliance Committee Chairman, and Envoy ALPA Senior Labor Relations Counsel worked throughout the day to vet and edit the language pass from the company. Late Thursday, we transmitted our revised language, which consisted of minor edits and clean-ups, back to the Company for their review. Then on Friday, I was told by Management's lead negotiator that the Company would be backing out of the Agreement in Principle that was agreed to earlier this week. The excuse given was that AAG had told Envoy management that they had exceeded their authority. At no time during this round of negotiations, and at no time before the Company signed the AIP on Tuesday, did Envoy indicate that their authority was limited or subject to the veto of AAG. This after the fact excuse to welsh on our agreement is in no way consistent with good faith negotiations.

This isn't the first time that our management has demonstrated bad faith in negotiations – a recent example being the failed Reserve Rules change proposals from negotiations ending in January. However, the impact of management reneging on this Agreement in Principle is far more damaging. The credibility of our management has been completely undermined by their actions this week, leaving us unable to trust that they will follow through on future agreements. This behavior is unacceptable.

Whether or not AAG is stepping in to rescind our agreement, or Envoy management ever actually conferred with AAG when they claimed to, is immaterial at this point. They made an agreement and are now repudiating it in bad faith. We cannot continue to pursue good faith negotiations with a management team that is incapable of following through on the agreements they make with the Association.

Envoy management is either unable to identify the mounting challenges facing the viability of the operation, or they are engaged in an effort to turn the pilots against their representatives in a desperate attempt at union busting. It is often assumed that management's actions are nefarious, but this week's events demonstrate that they simply are not committed to negotiate in good faith. Only when AAG recognizes and acknowledges that the pilots of Envoy demand an agreement that provides pay parity relative to the industry measured in real compensation, and not just pay rate tables, will it be possible for us to view it as a partner acting in good faith to offer a career path that meets industry standards. My profound disappointment in our management is shared by your LEC Representatives, the other MEC Officers, and volunteers who work tirelessly to represent the best interests of the pilot group day in and day out.

Originally, when we sent our update last Friday, a communication explaining why we hadn't come to an agreement was in development and slated for distribution. We determined that the signing of an Agreement in Principle, which represented the framework for tangible, durable, ratifiable, and much needed compensation improvements, eliminated the need to distribute that communication. Now that the company has reneged on the signed Agreement in Principle, it seems prudent to share with the pilot group the reasons why we are where we are. Following the transmittal of this update, we are also distributing a communication which was originally slated for distribution earlier this week.

You have the right to be angry.

You have the right to be disappointed.

Your management has failed you yet again.

You deserve proper compensation.

You deserve acceptable work rules.

Your Local Representatives are advocating for you tirelessly.

Your Officers and Committee Volunteers continue to focus on providing the services the pilots require.

I will not rest in my representation of the pilot group, my responsibility and duty to you.



It is never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news. Today marks the latest unwarranted disparagement of Envoy Pilots in a series of adversarial and toxic interactions initiated by Envoy management. We ask you in the meantime to continue to exhibit professionalism.


In Unity,

Steven Pallai

Iowa Farm Boy 06-19-2019 01:07 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Make no mistake- this was not "exceeded their authority." This was intentional. This is Doug Parker via Jerry Glass doing what they do. What they LOVE to do.

Beat you down; wear you down.

Induce Stockholm Syndrome.

They do not respect anyone or anything outside of themselves. APA and APA pilots better grow a BIG pair and get some fortitude because we're going to get steamrolled into another "regional average" contract if we don't.

cactusmike 06-20-2019 12:29 PM


Originally Posted by MD-11Loader (Post 2837539)
June 15th 2019
Fellow Pilots,

On Tuesday I signed an Agreement in Principle, along with the Envoy Senior Labor Relations Counsel and management's lead negotiator, to secure a comprehensive compensation improvement package for the pilots at Envoy. The Agreement in Principle was reached following a day of intense negotiations and was predicated on previous negotiating meetings. In preparing for the final round of negotiations it was made clear that neither the MEC, nor the pilots at Envoy, would accept any deal which left us lagging in compensation or had concessions attached to compensation improvements.

Once an Agreement in Principle is signed, the significant terms of an agreement are in place and the negotiating process is essentially over, with the tenets of the deal in place. The next step is drafting and editing contract language implementing the essential terms of the agreement. Sometimes this drafting process takes time, however Envoy management seemed determined to alleviate the mounting pressure they are experiencing to increase compensation and quality of life at Envoy due to the recent ratification of pay rate increases at Piedmont, as well as the PSA deal that was inked in early April. As such, we expected a language pass to be presented to us quickly. After the Agreement in Principle was signed, I called an MEC meeting via teleconference for Wednesday night in anticipation that draft contract language would be prepared and ready for evaluation by the MEC.

On Wednesday, the Company sent their first language pass derived from the Agreement in Principle that was signed by both parties on Tuesday. The language arrived less than two hours prior to the MEC teleconference, so there was not adequate time to thoroughly review and make technical corrections to the language reflecting our agreement prior to the teleconference. During the teleconference I updated the MEC on the progress of negotiations. Although the Agreement in Principle doesn't provide every provision we were seeking, it is a document that we found satisfactory and agreed to, and one that I believe the MEC would ratify.

The Agreement in Principle that Envoy management and your MEC Chairman agreed to includes many positive provisions for the pilots at Envoy without concessions. Some of the highlights are below:

Pay rates would be increased to a level slightly higher than those at PSA with retroactivity to May 15.
Pay-out upon flow through or retirement of accrued sick banks
Improvements to Reserve work rules which provide increased time off and more predictability
A reduction of pilot contribution to health care costs
Several Letters of Intent and agreements including Grievance Settlements which would provide a remedy for the affected pilots
All the recent progress came to a screeching halt late on Friday afternoon.

On Thursday, the MEC Officers, Contract Compliance Committee Chairman, and Envoy ALPA Senior Labor Relations Counsel worked throughout the day to vet and edit the language pass from the company. Late Thursday, we transmitted our revised language, which consisted of minor edits and clean-ups, back to the Company for their review. Then on Friday, I was told by Management's lead negotiator that the Company would be backing out of the Agreement in Principle that was agreed to earlier this week. The excuse given was that AAG had told Envoy management that they had exceeded their authority. At no time during this round of negotiations, and at no time before the Company signed the AIP on Tuesday, did Envoy indicate that their authority was limited or subject to the veto of AAG. This after the fact excuse to welsh on our agreement is in no way consistent with good faith negotiations.

This isn't the first time that our management has demonstrated bad faith in negotiations – a recent example being the failed Reserve Rules change proposals from negotiations ending in January. However, the impact of management reneging on this Agreement in Principle is far more damaging. The credibility of our management has been completely undermined by their actions this week, leaving us unable to trust that they will follow through on future agreements. This behavior is unacceptable.

Whether or not AAG is stepping in to rescind our agreement, or Envoy management ever actually conferred with AAG when they claimed to, is immaterial at this point. They made an agreement and are now repudiating it in bad faith. We cannot continue to pursue good faith negotiations with a management team that is incapable of following through on the agreements they make with the Association.

Envoy management is either unable to identify the mounting challenges facing the viability of the operation, or they are engaged in an effort to turn the pilots against their representatives in a desperate attempt at union busting. It is often assumed that management's actions are nefarious, but this week's events demonstrate that they simply are not committed to negotiate in good faith. Only when AAG recognizes and acknowledges that the pilots of Envoy demand an agreement that provides pay parity relative to the industry measured in real compensation, and not just pay rate tables, will it be possible for us to view it as a partner acting in good faith to offer a career path that meets industry standards. My profound disappointment in our management is shared by your LEC Representatives, the other MEC Officers, and volunteers who work tirelessly to represent the best interests of the pilot group day in and day out.

Originally, when we sent our update last Friday, a communication explaining why we hadn't come to an agreement was in development and slated for distribution. We determined that the signing of an Agreement in Principle, which represented the framework for tangible, durable, ratifiable, and much needed compensation improvements, eliminated the need to distribute that communication. Now that the company has reneged on the signed Agreement in Principle, it seems prudent to share with the pilot group the reasons why we are where we are. Following the transmittal of this update, we are also distributing a communication which was originally slated for distribution earlier this week.

You have the right to be angry.

You have the right to be disappointed.

Your management has failed you yet again.

You deserve proper compensation.

You deserve acceptable work rules.

Your Local Representatives are advocating for you tirelessly.

Your Officers and Committee Volunteers continue to focus on providing the services the pilots require.

I will not rest in my representation of the pilot group, my responsibility and duty to you.



It is never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news. Today marks the latest unwarranted disparagement of Envoy Pilots in a series of adversarial and toxic interactions initiated by Envoy management. We ask you in the meantime to continue to exhibit professionalism.


In Unity,

Steven Pallai

Wow, total BS from Parker and company. I guess this is what we have to look forward to. A deal won’t be a deal when one side refuses to abide by the agreement. It seems Parker has learned from past dealings with a certain union how to renege on agreements.

gzsg 06-20-2019 12:54 PM

Time for Doug Parker to go.

He always looks like he has slept in his suit for a month.

nAAtive 06-20-2019 03:54 PM


Originally Posted by gzsg (Post 2840364)
Time for Doug Parker to go.

He always looks like he has slept in his suit for a month.

He rarely wears suits.

SheepDogg 06-23-2019 07:03 PM


Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2836562)
https://images.app.goo.gl/JPTzrRumjZgL5Cva9

LOL, but Allegiant is SO much better. Envoy's flow is down to 8 1/2 years. You'd be coming over to AA soon, you know, if you hadn't of been fired. You better hope that AA never acquires Allegiant. AA has a history of firing former employees that are on their "Do not rehire" list. It'd be a shame if you got fired twice.

rondonq1 06-24-2019 06:51 PM


Originally Posted by SheepDogg (Post 2842159)
LOL, but Allegiant is SO much better. Envoy's flow is down to 8 1/2 years. You'd be coming over to AA soon, you know, if you hadn't of been fired. You better hope that AA never acquires Allegiant. AA has a history of firing former employees that are on their "Do not rehire" list. It'd be a shame if you got fired twice.

I think he say he work at Delta now. Even if he work at Allegiant it better than working at envoy. AA like envoy now. Bad work rule and harsh treatment of pilots and employee. AA and envoy about the same now. If you junior at AA you need to have app out with delta, United, southwest, jetblue, spirit.

SheepDogg 06-24-2019 07:27 PM


Originally Posted by rondonq1 (Post 2842812)
I think he say he work at Delta now. Even if he work at Allegiant it better than working at envoy. AA like envoy now. Bad work rule and harsh treatment of pilots and employee. AA and envoy about the same now. If you junior at AA you need to have app out with delta, United, southwest, jetblue, spirit.

Sure Don. And I can guarantee you, he doesn't work at Delta.

havick206 06-24-2019 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by rondonq1 (Post 2842812)
I think he say he work at Delta now. Even if he work at Allegiant it better than working at envoy. AA like envoy now. Bad work rule and harsh treatment of pilots and employee. AA and envoy about the same now. If you junior at AA you need to have app out with delta, United, southwest, jetblue, spirit.

Do you work at AA yourself?

rondonq1 06-24-2019 07:41 PM


Originally Posted by havick206 (Post 2842833)
Do you work at AA yourself?

I do work at AA. I flowed through after many years with American eagle. It bad over here. If you junior, it really bad. No joke, better for junior AA pilot to go somewhere else. AA one big envoy.

Name User 06-24-2019 07:57 PM


Originally Posted by rondonq1 (Post 2842840)
I do work at AA. I flowed through after many years with American eagle. It bad over here. If you junior, it really bad. No joke, better for junior AA pilot to go somewhere else. AA one big envoy.

It's interesting, if you go back and read your older posts you seem to have a much better grasp of the English language. So why the act now?

Aviatrx 06-25-2019 04:20 AM


Originally Posted by rondonq1 (Post 2842840)
I do work at AA. I flowed through after many years with American eagle. It bad over here. If you junior, it really bad. No joke, better for junior AA pilot to go somewhere else. AA one big envoy.

Troll much?

airlinegypsy 06-25-2019 04:24 AM

Maybe the name of this thread needs to be The New Eaglelounge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1Taco 06-25-2019 06:01 AM

Rondon caveman now.

SheepDogg 06-25-2019 07:20 AM


Originally Posted by Name User (Post 2842848)
It's interesting, if you go back and read your older posts you seem to have a much better grasp of the English language. So why the act now?

He thinks he is fooling us with his "personas". Thrustlever, RonDonq1... all the same clown whose act never changes. He is our own little Arnie Grape.

HardLemonade 06-26-2019 11:37 AM


Originally Posted by SheepDogg (Post 2843004)
He thinks he is fooling us with his "personas". Thrustlever, RonDonq1... all the same clown whose act never changes. He is our own little Arnie Grape.

Don't forget his other infamous alter ego: EagleFly

emb145 06-26-2019 12:01 PM

Whoever this guy is, and if he does work at Allegiant or Delta, why bash him? I left Envoy in early 14 for NK. I would have flowed last year. Comparing notes with my Eagle new hire classmate who did flow, my QOL is far better. He will make more money in the long run but I chose another avenue. AA definitely has some problems right now with angry labor groups, stock price dropping, roughly 22 billion in debt and arguably one of the worst customer service experiences in the industry with indifferent agents and more seats crammed in. Hopefully things will turn around. However, no need to bash a guy because he chose Allegiant.

havick206 06-26-2019 06:13 PM


Originally Posted by emb145 (Post 2843659)
Whoever this guy is, and if he does work at Allegiant or Delta, why bash him? I left Envoy in early 14 for NK. I would have flowed last year. Comparing notes with my Eagle new hire classmate who did flow, my QOL is far better. He will make more money in the long run but I chose another avenue. AA definitely has some problems right now with angry labor groups, stock price dropping, roughly 22 billion in debt and arguably one of the worst customer service experiences in the industry with indifferent agents and more seats crammed in. Hopefully things will turn around. However, no need to bash a guy because he chose Allegiant.

I don’t think anyone is bashing him for going to Allegiant.

People are calling him out on the fact he was actually fired from Envoy, and he’s just trying to make himself feel better about his current position by badmouthing ENY/AA.

Yes there are plenty of good options outside of ENY/AA flow. That’s doesn’t mean AA is a bad gig, it’s just whatever floats your boat.

SheepDogg 06-26-2019 07:56 PM


Originally Posted by emb145 (Post 2843659)
Whoever this guy is, and if he does work at Allegiant or Delta, why bash him? … However, no need to bash a guy because he chose Allegiant.

I do not bash him for going to Allegiant. He was fired from Envoy, for good reason, IMO. Out of anger, he has dedicated his life to bashing envoy/AA. If he did so just on the honest faults of the companies, of which there are many, I could respect that, but he has done so, often deceitfully, out of anger and spite. The same motivation drives RonDon. His career hasn't panned out as he expected so he takes out his anger and aggression against AA, envoy, APA and most importantly their pilots. Both individuals have earned the treatment they receive.

itsmytime 06-27-2019 04:26 AM


Originally Posted by SheepDogg (Post 2843886)
I do not bash him for going to Allegiant. He was fired from Envoy, for good reason, IMO. Out of anger, he has dedicated his life to bashing envoy/AA. If he did so just on the honest faults of the companies, of which there are many, I could respect that, but he has done so, often deceitfully, out of anger and spite. The same motivation drives RonDon. His career hasn't panned out as he expected so he takes out his anger and aggression against AA, envoy, APA and most importantly their pilots. Both individuals have earned the treatment they receive.

To piggyback on this, do you really believe that if a guy was really flying at delta, that he would give two $hits about what goes on at AA, or even more so Envoy? Hell no. Regardless of how he left the company.

Buzzlightyear 06-27-2019 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by itsmytime (Post 2843983)
To piggyback on this, do you really believe that if a guy was really flying at delta, that he would give two $hits about what goes on at AA, or even more so Envoy? Hell no. Regardless of how he left the company.

Depends on his motives. Some people only care about themselves. They won’t be bothered with helping others in any way. Others try to give helpful info to those who may be interested in the free flow of information.

ag386 06-28-2019 04:34 PM


Originally Posted by SheepDogg (Post 2843004)
He thinks he is fooling us with his "personas". Thrustlever, RonDonq1... all the same clown whose act never changes. He is our own little Arnie Grape.

Funny you should mention fooling people with personas. I have multiple sources inside Envoy and AA that have confirmed you are Dacuj as well as SheepDogg.

SheepDogg 06-29-2019 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2844832)
Funny you should mention fooling people with personas. I have multiple sources inside Envoy and AA that have confirmed you are Dacuj as well as SheepDogg.

Well, if you ever get fired from Allegiant, you got a future as an investigative reporter for CNN.

sailingfun 06-30-2019 03:29 AM


Originally Posted by SheepDogg (Post 2845390)
Well, if you ever get fired from Allegiant, you got a future as an investigative reporter for CNN.

According to his posts he works at Delta. What is the truth??

“”Do you have your apps out? Please don't discount the LCCs. If it weren't for me leaving Envoy for an LCC, I would have never landed the job at Delta, where I am now.””

SheepDogg 06-30-2019 04:36 PM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2845480)
According to his posts he works at Delta. What is the truth??

“”Do you have your apps out? Please don't discount the LCCs. If it weren't for me leaving Envoy for an LCC, I would have never landed the job at Delta, where I am now.””

According to his posts, huh? Well that that's all the proof I need. If he an honest person, he wouldn't have "left" envoy in the first place. Even in that post he isn't being very honest. "weren't for me leaving Envoy", if that means being escorted out while crying then yeah, he is a pretty honest guy.

Name User 06-30-2019 04:42 PM

It's generally pretty easy to determine if people are genuinely posting good info or not. Pretending to be someone you are not is not limited to Envoy posers, we have had several here I know about including a dude that told everyone he owned two gulfstream jets (now retired) and "magellan" who came from TWA and claims he's pretty much everything under the sun including a physician (or maybe surgeon), pastor, author (he reads his own book on trips). The dude is a joke.

OVBIII 07-01-2019 06:43 AM


Originally Posted by Name User (Post 2845801)
It's generally pretty easy to determine if people are genuinely posting good info or not. Pretending to be someone you are not is not limited to Envoy posers, we have had several here I know about including a dude that told everyone he owned two gulfstream jets (now retired) and "magellan" who came from TWA and claims he's pretty much everything under the sun including a physician (or maybe surgeon), pastor, author (he reads his own book on trips). The dude is a joke.

Your post reminded me of this scene.

https://youtu.be/36oSgRqqfCU

SheepDogg 07-01-2019 08:54 AM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2845480)
According to his posts he works at Delta. What is the truth??

“”Do you have your apps out? Please don't discount the LCCs. If it weren't for me leaving Envoy for an LCC, I would have never landed the job at Delta, where I am now.””

Might be worth making a call over to Delta HR to make sure that one of their probationary pilots didn't lie on his application about previous employment and the terms of that employment ending. Or to make sure that a certain person is on their list of unemployable individuals, as I can assure you, he is on AA's list.

Enginethunder 07-01-2019 10:41 AM


Originally Posted by SheepDogg (Post 2846022)
Might be worth making a call over to Delta HR to make sure that one of their probationary pilots didn't lie on his application about previous employment and the terms of that employment ending. Or to make sure that a certain person is on their list of unemployable individuals, as I can assure you, he is on AA's list.

What was he terminated for?

captive apple 07-01-2019 10:51 AM

Turning left instead of right out of ORD.

May he never work again.

Enginethunder 07-01-2019 11:03 AM


Originally Posted by captive apple (Post 2846089)
Turning left instead of right out of ORD.

May he never work again.

Or stopping on the Alpha bridge.

griff312 07-02-2019 05:05 PM

Went Clockwise on Bravo

cr700 07-06-2019 09:59 AM


Originally Posted by emb145 (Post 2843659)
Whoever this guy is, and if he does work at Allegiant or Delta, why bash him? I left Envoy in early 14 for NK. I would have flowed last year. Comparing notes with my Eagle new hire classmate who did flow, my QOL is far better. He will make more money in the long run but I chose another avenue. AA definitely has some problems right now with angry labor groups, stock price dropping, roughly 22 billion in debt and arguably one of the worst customer service experiences in the industry with indifferent agents and more seats crammed in. Hopefully things will turn around. However, no need to bash a guy because he chose Allegiant.

Not sure if you are more of a dope for leaving Envoy or this Allegiant guy. Guess he was fired though and had a reason. Your "decision" was just mega dumb.


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