Notices

China Service

Old 07-09-2019, 04:38 AM
  #11  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,539
Default

Originally Posted by AAL24 View Post
the weakest international network
No, that still belongs to Delta.
iahflyr is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:46 AM
  #12  
Gets Weekends Off
 
thrust's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,114
Default

Delta is really strong to Europe. Especially to its JV partners hubs, LHR/AMS/CDG. JV scope matters.
thrust is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 06:10 AM
  #13  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,539
Default

Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Delta is really strong to Europe. Especially to its JV partners hubs, LHR/AMS/CDG. JV scope matters.
767’s into LHR... I still say Delta is the weakest international of the big 3.
iahflyr is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:42 AM
  #14  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 536
Default

Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Delta is really strong to Europe. Especially to its JV partners hubs, LHR/AMS/CDG. JV scope matters.
Do you think AA has JV Scope? Why do all these AA pilots think APA has JV protections in the JCBA? The JV section is one paragraph long and it basically says we get to meet with management quarterly and ask nicely for some of the flying to go to mainline. Management will consider our input.

There are zero, I repeat zero, requirements to keep any JV growth flying in house.
AAL24 is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:29 AM
  #15  
You scratched my anchor
 
Al Czervik's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,872
Default

Originally Posted by AAL24 View Post
Do you think AA has JV Scope? Why do all these AA pilots think APA has JV protections in the JCBA? The JV section is one paragraph long and it basically says we get to meet with management quarterly and ask nicely for some of the flying to go to mainline. Management will consider our input.

There are zero, I repeat zero, requirements to keep any JV growth flying in house.
Wrong......
Read scope section K. There are substantial restraints. (It’s better than Delta) as a matter of fact.. if INTL flying hours fall enough, APA has to concur for codesharing with specific airlines to even continue.
Al Czervik is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:38 AM
  #16  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 536
Default

Originally Posted by Al Czervik View Post
Wrong......
Read scope section K. There are substantial restraints. (It’s better than Delta) as a matter of fact.. if INTL flying hours fall enough, APA has to concur for codesharing with specific airlines to even continue.
That is not correct with regards to new flying. I was talking about growth flying. We have absolutely zero constraints on international growth flying. Our only protections are historical international block hours. Do you see the distinction? AAL could announce 50 new city pairs with the QANTAS JV and every single one could be operated by QANTAS. As long as we maintained our current international block hours.

You highlight my point. Even informed AA pilots do not understand our JV scope limits. Imagine if Parker could buy unlimited RJs as long as he kept the mainline at present size. He could eventually have 2000 RJ's and 950 mainline jets (exaggeration to prove the point). That is how our JV agreement is written on the international side. Read it! As long as we maintain our historical international flying they can do whatever they want with new flying.

even more depressing look up the penalties for not maintaining international block hours. It takes forever and is full of loop holes.

Last edited by AAL24; 07-09-2019 at 11:57 AM.
AAL24 is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:45 AM
  #17  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 536
Default

it's all based on previous years baseline flying..

4. International Flying Below 90% and/or 80% of the Baseline in 2014 and Beyond.
On January 1, 2015 and on January 1 of each year thereafter, the International Baseline as calculated on the preceding January 1 shall be compared to the total block hours of International Flying scheduled by the Company during the preceding 12 months.
JCBA Rev.1
a.
b.
If the Company's scheduled International Flying is below 90% of the previous year's International Baseline, the Company shall have until the succeeding January 1 to cure that deficiency by increasing total scheduled block hours of International Flying to the level that would have met that 90% threshold. If the Company’s scheduled International Flying during that additional 12 months does not increase to this required level, then the Association's concurrence shall be required for the Company to enter into new international codesharing agreements whether to place the Company’s code on a Foreign Carrier’s flights or to carry a Foreign Carrier’s code on a Company flight.
If the Company’s scheduled International Flying is below 80% of the previous year’s International Baseline, the Company shall have until the succeeding January 1 to cure that deficiency by increasing total block hours back to the level that would have been required to meet that 80% threshold. If the Company’s scheduled International Flying during that additional 12 months does not increase to this required level, then the Association's concurrence shall be required for renewal or continuation of all codesharing agreements whether to place the Company’s code on a Foreign Carrier’s flights or to carry a Foreign Carrier’s code on a Company flight, with the exception of those specifically listed below:
AAL24 is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:49 AM
  #18  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 536
Default

Originally Posted by Al Czervik View Post
Wrong......
Read scope section K. There are substantial restraints. (It’s better than Delta) as a matter of fact.. if INTL flying hours fall enough, APA has to concur for codesharing with specific airlines to even continue.
Here is the exact wording from the contract on JV growth flying. I don't see any constraints.


I. Joint Ventures
1. The parties agree to work toward a fair allocation of flying for the Company in Joint Business Agreements ("JBAs"). The Association has the right to review JBAs and any material changes going forward. During the parties' Quarterly Scope meetings, the Company will discuss and receive input from the Association regarding current and anticipated JBAs.
AAL24 is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:15 PM
  #19  
You scratched my anchor
 
Al Czervik's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,872
Default

I see we are saying the same thing.. Section K 9 addresses new codeshare/JV. None of this can effect our current INTL flying or “our flown” JV growth.

Last edited by Al Czervik; 07-09-2019 at 12:30 PM.
Al Czervik is offline  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:38 PM
  #20  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 536
Default

Originally Posted by Al Czervik View Post
I see we are saying the same thing.. Section K 9 addresses new codeshare/JV. None of this can effect our current INTL flying or “our flown” JV growth.
I'm surprised that we limit Rj's to a percentage of mainline yet our JV flying could be many times larger than our in house flying. We cap RJ growth without a corresponding growth in mainline. Parker couldn't order 1000 new Rj's and keep the mainline fleet at 950+- yet he could start hundreds of new international JV routes and have no obligation to increase AA international in the slightest. Seems like a massive oversight by the scope committee. I'm a pessimist but I don't think the QANTAS JV will yield much at all for AA pilots except more opportunities to feed QA 380's with AA 321's.
AAL24 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
iahflyr
United
3
06-02-2017 01:07 PM
CRJAV8OR
Major
78
04-11-2012 10:46 AM
jungle
Money Talk
6
04-25-2011 05:26 AM
30 From Bottom
Cargo
3
07-10-2010 01:17 AM
GrayDogg
Major
0
02-24-2005 05:51 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices