I hope your friend is wrong.

1200 SIC and you’re throwing shade on mil pilots. You think you should be getting a legacy interview at 1500 SIC… SIC… time, but mil pilots are catered to. And you say this after getting face time with AA at the RTAG convention?!? Get bent nerd.

Flew with a 20 year Harrier pilot that was told by United to get more fixed wing time cuz it’s considered “powered lift”….

For reference: the 22 year old USAF pilot trainee has more TPIC hours than you, one month after starting UPT.

this might be the funniest thing I’ve read all year.
Conferences cater to what they’re named after. OBAP for Black people, WAI for women, RTAG for veterans, etc. TPNx is for all pilots so there you go.

As far as “preferential treatment”, airlines take mil guys because military flight training is pretty difficult. You do pilot training, then your initial qual in your jet, which is astronomically more in depth than any 121 training. Airlines know that if mil guys can pass that, plus all their upgrades (which is even more in depth training) then they’ll do just fine in an AQP. Not to mention every mil guy has been flying for 8-10 years.

You’re not the serious one

I’ll take them in the right seat any day. And former captains.

what does rtag stand for?

• Rotary to Airline Group (RTAG):
  A veteran-run 501(c)(3) non-profit that assists veterans in finding jobs in the aviation industry. It started by helping rotary-wing (helicopter) pilots but now helps all veterans, regardless of their military flight experience.

As a guy who comes from a civilian background, I strongly disagree with your ridiculous assessment. It sounds like you’re coming from a position of envy or jealousy or something, idk. That’s what I’m getting a whiff of.

I taught civilians as a CFI, then moved on to teaching military pilots as a civilian contractor for the U.S. Army. While military pilots aren’t perfect, here are some things I’ve observed:

1) This is the biggest. They are far, FAR more motivated and disciplined to get the job done, and GET AFTER it more than anything I’ve ever seen with like, 95% of my civilian colleagues. I RARELY told my army students to get studying. I ALWAYS had to tell my civilians to get cracking on studying. This is not meant to be a dig towards my civilian cohorts, just something I’ve observed as a matter of fact, based on my experiences as an IP having taught both civilian students and military students. I can’t help but notice the differences with the discipline and motivation levels between the 2 groups. It’s pretty damn obvious. Most of my civilian cohorts have not taught both military and civilian students, only civilians. So they aren’t aware that there are in fact, tremendous differences between the 2.

2). Military pilots tend to have a much thicker skin than civilians do. I’ve seen this time and time again. I’ve noticed this in my airline career so far on a 121 flight deck, and I noticed it as an instructor. They definitely learn from their mistakes and don’t take things personally. Are there some exceptions? Of course. But by and large, military guys seem to be much better able to ‘get back up, wipe the dust off them, and move forward, try it again, and don’t give up’ then I’ve ever seen on average with civilians. Are there some civilians who exhibit these characteristics? Certainly, but there just aren’t that many of them.

3) Military guys, on average compared to civilians, seem to know how to wear the airline pilot uniform correctly and don’t need to be told how to wear it. I’ve seen too many civilians especially the younger ones at my regional shop that seem to constantly disregard the FOM and what it says on how to wear the uniform properly. Some people are an utter embarrassment with how they wear it. This attitude is far reaching and it affects their presentation, in my opinion when it comes to getting a job at a major. Maybe if they’d present themselves a little better, maybe they could snag a CJO sooner? Maybe??? Just throwing it out there. I’ve heard more than my share of captains complain about seeing military guys getting CJO’s at majors and bitxxing about how ‘the majors are a buddy system for military dudes, it’s all about knowing someone from your squadron, and then you’re in.’ Yes, some idiot actually said that. And he was a terrible captain to fly with too. After doing a 4 day with him, it became obvious as to why he wasn’t getting calls from the majors. And this was during the ‘hiring surge’ in 2023 mind you.

4) Military pilots, on average, seem to know how to follow standardization better than civilians do. I’ve had too many civilian FO’s that complain about why we need to do things a particular way, this is BS, that’s BS, blah blah blah, far more than I’ve seen military pilots do it. It’s really aggravating as a captain to listen to it. I asked one FO who ‘strongly disagreed’ with how the company wants us to fly a descend via profile on a star saying it’s ’just Stupid, doesn’t make sense.’ I said to him man I hope you don’t deviate from the standards so much when you upgrade, because speaking up to you as an FO will become a nightmare, and your an accident waiting to happen. Don’t be doing that crap with my family onboard. We aren’t a 135 op. He immediately toned it down after that.

But anyway, i digress. Think you get the point, maybe, maybe not, I don’t really care. But, one thing I’ve noticed with some of my FO’s lately, especially the younger ones, is that quite a few of them seem to have a really thin skin. Suck it up, buttercup. You’re not special. I don’t care what your mommy and daddy said about you your whole life growing up. You aren’t special. You can either take that as a personal insult, or take it and use it for some serious self correction, and better yourself and do something to make yourself look more competitive, and less entitled.

Hippy civilian…..
 

The airlines have ALWAYS preferred ex-military over civilian. Full stop. Nothing new here.

Networking, job fares, inside connections, associations and demographics have also played a major part in interview selection and hiring for decades. Nothing new here. Experience is also weighed as heavily as military. Unless you have a major blemish in your record.

One reason military candidates are preferred is that they are a known entity. Airlines know what they’re getting when they hire someone from the military. Some airlines prefer fighter pilots over transport or “crewed” airplanes. Some the opposite. Military candidates are also more obedient and compliant than other candidates. This lasts until the unions get ahold of their souls.

”Whole-ly owned” airlines and ab initio programs sidestep this known entity process. They create a known entity, and can jump ahead of someone with equal, or even better, experience or flight time.

Bankruptcy, especially Chapter 7, equalizes all.

We should all be grateful for the abundance we have received since COVID. This era is unprecedented, and likely won’t be repeated. Four years at this major, upgraded in 2 in my domicile/residence. I’ve got 5 years left.

Arrogance and entitlement serves no one.

• Rotary to Airline Group (RTAG):
  

I guess the biggest issue folks have is that military isn’t in the acronym.
every other “group” has the race or sexual preference who it is targeting in the name.

sure, but anyone who has ever been to the website and doesn’t realize that it’s a veteran organization, has to be really unaware of things right in front of them. And to attend as a non-veteran, you had to select that option to get your ticket.

Way before RTAG, there was APTAP (Army Pilot To Airline Pilot). So, yeah military pilots helping military pilots figure out how to get to the airlines is nothing new. RTAG just took it a lot further and made into something really special.

You could have signed the dotted line and done 10 deployments, to glorious places (sarcasm), too...

But you didn't, too bad.

I wasn’t aware there used to be another group before. Where did they go? What is more special about rtag. Serious questions.

I think the issues some folks may have is that when you go to OBAP you don’t have to be born with a certain amount of melanin to get a meet and greet. Same thing for the other oppressed minority groups. However at rtag American made sure to only give meet and greets to veterans even with everyone paying the same to come. It’s not cheap to travel cross country for a chance to better your situation.

Here’s the question. Why didn’t American require that you attest to have earned a commercial helicopter license before a fixed wing one. American didn’t care if you had helicopter time at all. As long as you were a veteran, which has nothing to do with the acronym RTAG.

APTAP was definitely an informal group. There was a website and a lot of word of mouth. Most guys didn’t know about it until transitioning from RW to FW. Many will have never heard of it. The website itself went away around 2014 if I recall. It was not the organization that RTAG has become. If you want to know what makes the organization special- they have a website. Between scholarships and the access to the myriad of sponsors that attend the convention, there is a lot that makes this organization social.

regarding American’s methodology of awarding meet and greets- you’d have to ask someone in recruiting. I also think you had to sign up in advance for the meet and greets - first come-first serve - at least that’s how it was in previous years. By the way- AAL is not the only airline to sponsor the convention. I’ve had friends interview with (at RTAG) and receive CJOs from UAL a few day later.

When RTAG started- it was Army RW pilots. I also think they were a big part of the push to get RTPs going. It has since grown into the largest non-profit veteran charity in the world. Crew chiefs, mechanics, dispatchers, medevac, all have opportunities available to them at the convention. So- yeah, it has outgrown the acronym. I guess you could reach out to them and ask them to change it…. MTV is still called MTV

I don’t know if I covered everything. Hope this helps.

But he's almost up to the door opening 1500 hrs TSIC time. :-/

It doesn't take that long....by the time the gear's up and locked the UPT/SUPT stud already has more TPIC time.

Seconding your post - Buddy's son, with approx. 700 hrs, fresh CFI MEI, became the ME instructor when the previous got left for the regionals. He had the same thoughts - "why do the airlines like ex-military guys, and especially fighter pilots?" They had a lot of military guys getting their ATP/MEI as customers. "I get it now. The military guys show up prepared. They've studied, they study stuff you tell them to look at, you can tell they've had good training, they learn quickly and listen to, and fix, what you point out. The fighter pilots are better. They fly better, maybe not initially as it's a vastly different airplane, but they learn, and adapt, quickly. I can see why the airlines prefer them." Not an actual quote by an accurate synopsis of our conversation. Of course there's exceptions but he said, after dozens of military students, that there's a difference. He found the civilian students more likely to be frustrating for lack of performance, studying, preparedness, etc.

It's funny listening to younger pilots be frustrated by their age peers or guys a bit less experienced than them. If they see it maybe it's not just old New Balance wearers complaining needlessly.

I’ll speak to my experience. Ive got more than 9 years in just the Bus and when I get hired next to a Navy/ AF pilot I feel proud to be accepted into the same group as those people. They may have a lot to learn as far as 121 goes but they’re exceptional people as a whole.

Assessment
 

First post here...

Just got the email to do the first assessment after applying. Seen a few things online saying it's a "Cut-E type test". Is that accurate? Can anyone give me an idea what's on this thing?

Thank you!

I used https://airlineassessmentprep.com/cu...d-assessments/ when I was prepping 2 years ago. I think I paid for 1 month, practiced for a few days, got the gist, cancelled and did the AA app. There's other sites out there but it's basic hand eye coordination type tests on an ipad or touch screen laptop

Thanks! I got the prep. I’ll check it out.

Definitely drop the $24 for the prep. (and make sure to cancel before the auto renew) I did the AAssessment last week and got 9 (yes, nine!) different types of tests in mine. All of them were in the prep software linked above, albeit slightly different. For example, the tunnel and its obstacles were a bit different style and the colors of the Sudoku shapes were different. I'd suggest writing down the formulas for determining circumference, volume, etc and having them handy. You're encouraged to use a calculator, which I took to mean "smartphone" and I had to waste time googling that during the word problem portion. It is not monitored. (DAL and UAL assessments are monitored)

Took it. Fun…. also the test is done by a company called AON. They have test prep on their website too that is more current than some of the Cut-E prep sites for what is on the assessment.

Anyone know how long it takes to get a response after you take it?

It took about a week after I took the AON test to get the interview invite.

I had an interview invite a few days after I took it. Same day I took it I flew with an FO who had just received a CJO so of course we talked about it. He said it took them a year and laughed. Times are different now though, as I think they are trying to get some NK pilots before UA and DL get them all. Who knows.

I received an email saying my application was reviewed and I am moving on to the next stage. The email mentioned I would be receiving a follow up to schedule an interview. My understanding is that there is a ZOOM HR pre-interview before the real thing? What can I expect the nexts steps to be? Thanks for info!

Yes. You'll do an HR interview confirming your information, then it'll be basically a mini-interview with TMAAT or "explain to a non-pilot what would you do with..." type questions. Once that's done, you'll get the invite to go to Dallas to do the main interview. Good luck!

I took it 2 years ago and never got response. Still waiting!

Thanks for the info!

I’ve flown with quite a few former NK pilots in the past year or so. AA seems to be grabbing as many as they can. Every ex-NK pilot I've flown with has been top notch in every way. Best of luck to you, Ed Force One. Hope to see you here.

Spirit hired some great people. Talked to a couple during recent SV6 stay. 13 Spirit pilots in one class. Their training at Spirit was tough. 4 simulator sessions total for new hires I think. If you get through their program you are very competent. I say hire all of them.

Yes. It was 4 back in the day and they increased it to 5 or so to help some that needed it, but yes, the AA training is a completely different experience for any of my NK guys coming over.

Help keep the great reputation NK pilots have earned here. It’s refreshing when a CA says “oh dang, you’re ex Spirit, everyone from there has been great to fly with”.

As someone that went through Spirit initial training a few years back, even from flying previous regional jets, that **** was hard.

It was cut or be cut.

Can we get a recent update please? What are currently the competitive minimums to get an interview?

Current competitive hours?

no idea, they dont publish. website has mins.

If everyone posts their times then you can see who has the lowest but that doesn't adjust for outliers like being a former intern, etc. The only thing we know for certain is unless you have a special differentiator, bring some turbine PIC time (hopefully for an Air Carrier certificate holder)

ex Spirit pilots, flow pilots, and ex mil. Are the vast majority of pilots

A large percentage of those spirit guys were captains, too. So you’re probably looking at 3k TT and 500 TPIC minimum to be competitive. The good news is that we’re supposed to keep the hiring train going.

Yes, I was mostly looking at input from people who were invited and what their hours were

Thanks to all else who answered

It is ironic that you went off on the Spirit forum how everyone should be leaving because they will be out of business any day and only a fool would stay there; and now you’re competing with those who took your advice, but they are applying with more time and experience than you.

Good luck. Spirit CAs getting the calls are all at least 5,000 TT and A320 PIC. Job fairs and networking is your best shot to get some eyes.


Around 200 NK pilots went to AA this year. AA hired about 550-600 this year from non flow non military.