Is it possible to not sign a new contract?
11-29-2011, 08:53 PM
#11
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Absolute horse poop. This is all false. ALPA has worked Congress non stop to change 1113c. Try counting to 60 and tell me why it hasn't passed. (think filibuster, remember school house rock)
If you call the CAPA office, I am sure you will be able to get a hold of someone to verify this information and how deceitful ALPA National is. Or maybe ask Brendon Kenny at ALPA what happened and why they had CAPAs hearing canceled via their political contacts. As you say, ALPA has worked to change 1113c but what they did was sabotage CAPA, Teamsters and the IAMs efforts on 3 Dec 2009. And now we have no changes to the RLA/1113. Thanks ALPA.
Call CAPA or I can PM you my phone number and I can give you a verbal pass down of more details of what happened. ALPA has fought against CAPA the whole way on this issue.
Craig
11-29-2011, 10:05 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Cub Cap
Posts: 175
So with that in mind the AA pilot group will be threatened with an 1113 filling that is almost guaranteed. You will be forced the "negotiate" with that threat hanging over your heads and your alternative to accepting concessionary terms is to go to court and let a BK judge decide your fate and then much of what can be salvaged will be at the mercy of BK judge whom will most certainly be in the companies corner as that is just how those things work. There will not be a level playing field these things have already been thought out and pre arraigned none of these proceedings are reactionary. Your fate has already been planned out long before any of these actions are taken. the companies BK law team has been working on this for a long time already.
Obviously I hope for the sake of the AA pilot group that their legal council is better than what was offered to the UAL group but in any case you are out monied, out classed and going into a fight with your hands tied behind your backs. That is the simple truth of the matter.
Call me jaded if you wish because I am, as I've seen firsthand the brutal truth of how a major corporations operates under BK protection including all the nasty little tricks and mind games they are going to pull.
Obviously I hope for the sake of the AA pilot group that their legal council is better than what was offered to the UAL group but in any case you are out monied, out classed and going into a fight with your hands tied behind your backs. That is the simple truth of the matter.
Call me jaded if you wish because I am, as I've seen firsthand the brutal truth of how a major corporations operates under BK protection including all the nasty little tricks and mind games they are going to pull.
There was nothing wrong with the UAL MEC lawyers, they told it as it was, it was the majority of the UAL-MEC and ultimately the pilots that sold out early, albeit with the help of the company's media cronies fear mongering.
A little history for the AA guys, the UAL union's lawyers did not think a BK judge's orders could transcend the companies exit from bankruptcy. So, if management can win an 1113c, so that they may pay from their term sheet during the BK, they nonetheless will have to deal with the unions if they want to exit. This conundrum is the Axe that will cause the employees whose knees are knocking tonight to sell their future for pennies and allow the senior managers to retire millionaires.
A major problem for management may be that the AA employees have the advantage of having seen this circus before. Hopefully APA will not make the same mistakes with their pensions as did UAL. They should not be bullied into signing away the next generation's careers because of fear. So far, they are doing a good job by not falling for concession before an inevitable and pre-orchestrated BK.
From one that has done this, my advice to the AA pilots, study history and don't make any quick decisions. The value of the AA frequent flyer program is a hidden asset that far exceeds any shortfall in the pension programs, don't let them give it to the PBGC without a fight.
This BK is not so much about bashing the employees, who are already at competitive wages, it is about chiseling the bond holders, vendors and leases that no longer make sense. AA wants to stiff the lenders as much as possible, employees and stockholders are only so much collateral damage. The stockholders are screwed, but they voted for this management and they got what they deserve. The employees will be just fine when this over and if they get rid of a few miscreants, they may be better off.
Airline BK is just a devious business tool for narcissistic managers with no talent, but a strong desire to attain personal enrichment.
Baron
11-30-2011, 06:56 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: C172
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by cgull
Lee,
I would like to add that this is what the Rail Road employees have to protect them under the RLA:
11 USC 1167 - Sec. 1167. Collective bargaining agreements
U.S. Code - Title 11: Bankruptcy
Linked as:
Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act except in accordance with section 6 of such Act.
About 2 years ago, CAPA was attempting to amend the RLA as it applies to Air Carriers so that in the event of a bankruptcy, labor could have the same protections as the Railroad employees have. But, ALPA, through its political contacts sabotaged CAPA, The Teamsters and the IAM's hearing before congress on 3 December 2009 and had it cancelled. ALPA fought CAPA all the way through this process.
So, because ALPA National, under John Prater did not want CAPA's, language to amend the RLA to reflect the protections as the railroad employees have, Airline Labor got nothing and American Pilots are going to suffer a worse fate than had CAPA been able to successfully amend the RLA to get the same protections as the railroad employees.
ALPA is a cancer to the Airline Pilot Profession!
Craig
I would like to add that this is what the Rail Road employees have to protect them under the RLA:
11 USC 1167 - Sec. 1167. Collective bargaining agreements
U.S. Code - Title 11: Bankruptcy
Linked as:
Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act except in accordance with section 6 of such Act.
About 2 years ago, CAPA was attempting to amend the RLA as it applies to Air Carriers so that in the event of a bankruptcy, labor could have the same protections as the Railroad employees have. But, ALPA, through its political contacts sabotaged CAPA, The Teamsters and the IAM's hearing before congress on 3 December 2009 and had it cancelled. ALPA fought CAPA all the way through this process.
So, because ALPA National, under John Prater did not want CAPA's, language to amend the RLA to reflect the protections as the railroad employees have, Airline Labor got nothing and American Pilots are going to suffer a worse fate than had CAPA been able to successfully amend the RLA to get the same protections as the railroad employees.
ALPA is a cancer to the Airline Pilot Profession!
Craig
Who is CAPA your highschool reunion group or CAL prior "union" with 700 or so selfish pilots in better terms instead os s----s?
11-30-2011, 07:02 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 840
Thanks for those that have given answers to the questions I asked. To the others, go threadjack somewhere else.
My question to the AA guys (or others as applicable). If they force a BS contract on you through court system, why not burn it down? I.E. Walk off the job. Not as a union, but as 9000 individuals. They won't have the ability not to meet your demands (which are reasonable). At this point the RLA can suck it. Who wants to work at a job that pays so little and requires so much time away from home, training, etc? Arpey ran the place into the ground and the management is trying to pay themselves with your paychecks.
My question to the AA guys (or others as applicable). If they force a BS contract on you through court system, why not burn it down? I.E. Walk off the job. Not as a union, but as 9000 individuals. They won't have the ability not to meet your demands (which are reasonable). At this point the RLA can suck it. Who wants to work at a job that pays so little and requires so much time away from home, training, etc? Arpey ran the place into the ground and the management is trying to pay themselves with your paychecks.
11-30-2011, 07:40 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 441
Originally Posted by paokgate4
Who is CAPA your highschool reunion group or CAL prior "union" with 700 or so selfish pilots in better terms instead os s----s?
11-30-2011, 07:57 AM
#16
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by tanker
CAPA is the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations. It is made up of the pilot unions of AA, SWA, US Air, UPS, Horizon, ABX, Polar Air, and other cargo carriers.
11-30-2011, 09:24 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
Originally Posted by swimheiss
After seeing your full reply in context, I see you are right. Long-term though, would a master seniority list be possible? I would think if there were one union, and one list, the companies would only be left to negotiate base rates, benefits, and bonuses. Like I said, this is all just naive thinking, and I have seen a lot of posts from pilots that show sympathy and solidarity. However, when integrated seniority lists are discussed in merger talks, all of a sudden the sharpshooting begins and everyone starts to undercut everyone else. Are you in it together or not?
I wish the best for all of you, no matter what the carrier, because it looks like the only way to the American dream as Wall St. and the "ruling class" sees it is through f###ing others no matter what. We all need to be a bunch of old bulls and f### 'em all!
I wish the best for all of you, no matter what the carrier, because it looks like the only way to the American dream as Wall St. and the "ruling class" sees it is through f###ing others no matter what. We all need to be a bunch of old bulls and f### 'em all!
Excellent concept, and one that would remedy our ailing profession.The major hindrance to implementing this concept emanates from the one group that would benefit the most. The pilots. Self serving, narrow-minded, and short-sighted. The profession has and will continue to erode to the least common denominator. Anyone who expects a fair compensation for their experience and skill, should look to emerging economy countries. They will pay for such attributes.
11-30-2011, 09:33 AM
#18
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
Excellent concept, and one that would remedy our ailing profession.The major hindrance to implementing this concept emanates from the one group that would benefit the most. The pilots. Self serving, narrow-minded, and short-sighted. The profession has and will continue to erode to the least common denominator. Anyone who expects a fair compensation for their experience and skill, should look to emerging economy countries. They will pay for such attributes.
A country with a brand new aviation industry (thus starting with a clean slate) would be the only situation where a master seniority list could be done. It has to be done from the get go, not after 80 years of development.
11-30-2011, 11:09 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
A master seniority list is nothing but a utopian pipe dream in the US.
A country with a brand new aviation industry (thus starting with a clean slate) would be the only situation where a master seniority list could be done. It has to be done from the get go, not after 80 years of development.
A country with a brand new aviation industry (thus starting with a clean slate) would be the only situation where a master seniority list could be done. It has to be done from the get go, not after 80 years of development.
That is my take on it too!
11-30-2011, 11:19 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by HSLD
Instead of throwing rocks, maybe you'd like to offer "real" information? Lee's post mirrors what I lived through, read, and understood on my company's 2003 trip through Chapter 11.
To add to what Lee said, the end game is like playing "Let's make a Deal". You have a low ball offer in the term sheet that rapes almost every aspect of your contract. Do you take it, or take what's behind the curtain in the form of the possibility the judge will approve the 1113c motion? That's the boogieman that management will infer in the best and final offer. It's a gamble to be sure, but if the company tries to negotiate FARs why not make the judge force it on you instead of agreeing to it?
To add to what Lee said, the end game is like playing "Let's make a Deal". You have a low ball offer in the term sheet that rapes almost every aspect of your contract. Do you take it, or take what's behind the curtain in the form of the possibility the judge will approve the 1113c motion? That's the boogieman that management will infer in the best and final offer. It's a gamble to be sure, but if the company tries to negotiate FARs why not make the judge force it on you instead of agreeing to it?
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