Ruling delayed, APA members to vote June 27
 

Bankruptcy: Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as pilots mull latest offer | LeveragedLoan.com

Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as APA board is granted request by Judge Lane
APA members to vote June 27

Bankruptcy: Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as pilots mull latest offer | LeveragedLoan.com

I guess the new D-Day for 1113 is June 29th.

Proposed A319/737-700 "B" Scale will kill this deal. 15% less than the MD-80 for 2 contract cycles or 10 years, whichever is greater.

A319/737-700 pay is an attempt at another B scale.

A319/737-700 pay will be less than 75% of DL/SW's pay rates. For 6 yrs!

Two contract or 10 yrs doesn't apply to the A319/737-700 pay. It applies to the work rules for Group I aircraft.

APA members don't get to vote. APA BOD votes.

Hearing is June 29. Judge required an answer two days early last week so he probably wants to know the answer by 4 PM on the 27th.

This is a well written summary from STL chairman

posted on June 23, 2012 07:43

What happened?

This week was a roller coaster for the pilots of American Airlines. What I will attempt to do in this blast is to describe what happened.

A little background; I have been involved in a leadership or negotiating committee role for three (3) chapter 11 contract ratifications and one (1) near chapter 11 (AA 2003), since 1992.

What was presented to the APA Board for ratification was by far, the worst, most incomplete and irresponsible contract proposal I have ever seen. What was actually voted on failed more on what was intentionally unavailable, than from the content within.

On Friday, June 15th, the Company made a last and final best offer to APA in New York during mediated bargaining. The LBFO documents were over ten separate documents, some related, some not. Their form was in no way even close to contract language. Major contract areas were defined by single sentences or only a paragraph. Some versions were not accurate to the last state of bargaining or conflicted with other proposed documents.

The APA Board arrived on Monday afternoon to review the proposed agreement. What happened was many of those documents were still in various stages of negotiation. Some of the final documents were not even drafted yet and ended up not being available for board review until only minutes before the vote.

To describe the actual vote as chaotic would be an understatement. As the vote was imminent, it was realized that most of the Board did not even have complete or current versions of all the documents that we were voting on.

In the end, there were 11 total documents. The board had only reviewed 7 of them while in session prior to the vote. One document was still being negotiated as the vote was taking place.

Some examples of substantial contractual areas that lacked adequate detail were Pref Bidding and reserve rules. The Company was proposing to implement Pref Bidding with only one sentence of contractual language. Reserve Rules were only a few sentences leaving gaping questions on how it would be implemented. As written, the company would be able to require airport standby’s, no reasonably available, pretty much complete company discretion on how over 25% of our workforce is administered.

What was proposed to us was either, clearly, bad faith bargaining or gross incompetence. AA and APA have been negotiating for 6 years. It is unthinkable that the company did not have in their possession, basic or skeletal language on such important areas as reserve rules and pref bidding.

Why was the language omitted?

For the APA to approve a new 6-year collective bargaining agreement on what was proposed to us would have been an act of gross negligence.

AA has requested and received approval for a 1-week delay in the 1113(c) decision. The APA Board will reconvene next week to review what has been promised to be, more complete and robust proposals.

As soon as this next week is complete, we will be scheduling a series of domicile meetings to give you a detailed account of where are and where we are going.

You are correct, the APA BOD gets to vote, but what they are voting for is not to accept the deal, all they are voting for is yes/no to send the last proposal to the membership, if they do then the 1113 process for the pilots will likely be frozen until the pilots complete the vote, if they vote in there ya go new contract, if they vote no, then the judge will rule and we will go from there. But the APA BOD will not be voting in a contract the membership will.
The judge has extended the 1113 ruling for all of AMR contracts to Friday June 29th but has asked the APA BOD to complete their voting by COB Wednesday June 27th.

2 six-year contracts for this issue with 5 years of stalling by management is 17 years or in other words, the a career agreement for 95% of AA pilots.

Totally unacceptable.

APA BoD passed LBFO 9-7.....going out to membership for vote.

Yes. Getting 50%+1 of the pilots to vote for ratification will be a tall order from what I've seen so far. Considering the contraction and demontions, the overwhelming majority of pilots will be facing significant pay losses and many subject to furlough. Our claim can be butchered in the C11 process with some of it handed over to management as bonuses. Scope ?

Well, no comment.

There is so much wrong with it in so many ways, that I've stopped reading and plan to vote no. The APA is required to urge us to ratify it, but I can't force myself to sign up for this and would rather take my chances with the judge. Unless there's something I don't know, no amount of pressure will get me to agree to this thing.

Kill me if you must, but demand that I kill myself I won't do. :mad:

Why
 

Eaglefly

Can you provide your reasons for your no vote? How does this contract lead to pay losses and furloughs?

Has a BK judge ever ruled in favor of a union, what would you lose if history prevails and the judge rules in favor of AMR?

Has the BK judge ever rejected a mainline pilot contract?

Has an airline management ever faced an Airline like US Airways that will do everything in its power to take over, has an airline management ever been faced with such a senior pilot group who most have ties to the military (pensions) and are so close to retirement. Look at what happened last fall, the 777 operation took a severe hit that is being felt today. Management can't afford for this to drag on, US Airways can put a bid out starting in Sept and this will only put more pressure on AMR, there is a reason AMR now has 5.1 Billion dollars in the bank!

TO your answer for a no vote, have you looked at the code share and SCOPE, have you seen how the pay banding and current airframes vs future aircraft will affect their pay? The devil will be in the details but I will expect it to not be great and the membership to vote it down.

What does this latest development mean for a potential US/AA merger? Has US lost the pilots' union support?

Even if they actually want you to reject it? If so, that is a stupid rule. :confused:

I keep hearing that, but...

APA still supports a merger with USAIR.

My reasons are too numerous to list. As far as pay losses and furloughs;

- Allows up to 400 furloughs as soon as we ratify (perhaps more before that) and another 400 if they announce a merger. That's 800 furloughs and possibly more, leaving 7200 pilots (possibly less). AMR estimated 1400 furloughs, APA 2000, so plan on max ability to furlough.

- The bulk of the narrowbody domestic fleet slated for replacement will be S80 and 757 which are Group III and group IV aircraft (pay rate). They will be replaced mostly with A319 and some A321. A319 is Group II pay, so figure a minimum of 400 captains (possibly more) get the chop to F/O = pay cut, A majority of the pilot group will soon fly Group II A319 which is below all pay they've received to date (S80 pays more), so figure several thousand will transition to the lowest paying aircraft on the AA scale = pay cut.

Of course, furloughees get a 100% pay cut.

If I were to go into all the areas where this "deal" is essentially no better then the 1113 term sheet (TA is 214 pages), I'd fry the website.........'nuff said. :cool:

Four Airbuses are taxiing out for takeoff in 2013. One Jet Blue, One Frontier, One Delta and One American. What's each Captains' hourly wage (assuming equal seniority at 12 years) ?

Jet Blue - $164
Frontier - $156
Delta - $161 (soon to up)
American - $147

The former 737/S80 captains flying it (fairly senior) took a $23/hour downgrade. Virtually all the F/O's will be back to 20 years seniority and climbing. In fact, projecting forward on AA shrinking (while Eagle and code-shaeres expand taking more of our domesitc network), it would surprise me to see AA have 25 year F/O's by 2017 (perhaps earlier).

That's what 4% pay RATE bump on the TA will almost certainly produce...........a pay LOSS in reality due to the other provisions.

Upgrades going forward ?

Uh-huh........sure. :cool:

If we merge with U, that brings the combined domestic fleet to about 820 aircraft. TA allows up to 75% of that for RJ's = 615 RJ's. Add ANOTHER 400 aircraft of any size outsourced as code-share, NOT INCLUDING Alaska which would be unrestricted.

These numbers will come down as the combined AA/U likely shrinks (ALL deliveries through 2018 have been announced as replacement only and most likely more will go then arrive, i.e., S80, 757/767-200 elimination), but you can see from a career standpoint, an AA pilots (present or future) is dead as a doornail for many years. It's a 6-year deal with option to section 6 at 4 years, but AMR successfully stalled for 5 years (and could have gone a lot more), so in effect, it's a 10-15 year deal or basically the last contract for 90% of AA pilots.

Vote NO......

AMR has to get a agreement with the APA before their management can cash in on the exit BK.....Screw Them.....

IMO the APA BOD did the most prudent thing in barely (9-7, manufactured I imagine - a nice vote of duty but no confidence) allowing the membership to determine their own fate (and getting 6 more weeks of status quo, btw). Let's face it, this is a sham bankruptcy designed to bust the unions and the company holds the best cards. If it wasn't sent out for a vote my money's that the terms would've been imposed today. It sucks but it is what it is. If it's voted down expect the judge to rule in the company's favor.

You might say the American pilots have a choice: **** sandwich (terms) or ss w/ cheese and condiments (TA).

Only reason I'm voting no is because there isn't a H3LL NO! on the ballot.

They didn't do that at all, but not going to go into it though. A LARGE percentage of pilots are screaming objection to the TA, scope espcially. It basically wipes the bottom half out. Despite a likely buttery dog-and-pony show by APA, I'm thinking it won't make it.

In reviewing the TA, I'd reverse those two.

....:D....

!!!!!! :D

Didn't do what? Manufacture the 9-7 vote or the most prudent thing (or both)?

You really think the term sheet's better? Guess I need to pay more attention. Of course my view is from the outside w/ no emotion so obviously a different mindset.

Didn't do the prudent thing. From the outside looking in, I can easily see why you formed your opinion.

No, the "terms" of the 1113 aren't better, but the long-term CONSEQUENCES of voting for this TA will be worse for the pilot group, especially the junior half. I'm on the inside and not emotional. Both short and long term, it's disasterous for AA pilots.

Scope aside, I couldn't find language for pbs, and without it that is a reason to vote no. Pbs can be the pivotal item that affects quality of life. Should the company decide how it operates unilaterally, I would rather be furloughed.